More Salt Please, The "Sky Is Falling" NAPD Most Wanted List thread

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More Salt Please, The "Sky Is Falling" NAPD Most Wanted List thread

Postby Johno » Thu Dec 31, 2015 6:00 pm

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FFG has announced a restricted list for Netrunner. What are your thoughts?
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Re: More Salt Please, The "Sky Is Falling" NAPD Most Wanted List thread

Postby Chimpster » Thu Dec 31, 2015 6:07 pm

Huge hits to NBN FA and Noise. Be interesting to see how store champ season shakes out!
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Re: More Salt Please, The "Sky Is Falling" NAPD Most Wanted List thread

Postby Nekader » Thu Dec 31, 2015 6:17 pm

Mixed opinions.

Foremost, I'm glad that the restricted list took the form of additional influence, rather than straight banning the cards. This means that where the cards are crucial to a strategy, you can still make use of them. But it stops things like the SanSan Haarpsichord kill decks that had two bonkers powerful win conditions once it got rolling.

Second, initial comments were focusing on decks that got switched off through 'hate' bans. Specifically PPvP Kate and Fastro. HB gets weirdly hammered by this as well though, specifically food coats. No more Caprice psi games, just a straight tax, IF you want to include Elis and Architects. This goes for plenty of factions actually and is why I have no issue with Caprice not being on the list: do you want efficient ice or a chance to survive anything? Deck-building decisions are always a positive.

My main issue is the choice of cards. I've commented elsewhere that Datasucker is probably the only runner card that needed a restriction because that would switch off Yog and Parasite. I can see the argument for Clone Chip because it is ubiquitous in almost all anarchs as well as the ever-present PPvP Kate, but ultimately, anarchs already have to pay influence for it so it hurts them worse PLUS the low inf runners (poor Kit) and Kate will never not use any. Interestingly, makes Clot play more interesting for both sides: will it be an auto include now or will removing it basically pay for Kate the keep the clone chips for (almost) free? Maybe that's why they nerfed Prepaid as well?

Corp side seems more fair. Plenty of alternatives to ice and I think it is fair that Eli and Architect seem to be everywhere currently. There are lots of alternatives and it's going to be a more exciting game seeing some of the weirder combinations coming out.

Still not sure overall. Not sure if this is going to radically change the meta or just separate those who know their decks well from those (like myself) who just run fast everywhere.
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Re: More Salt Please, The "Sky Is Falling" NAPD Most Wanted List thread

Postby Sincil Banks » Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:10 pm

Just spent the entire summer honing my Kit deck, talk about a punch in the nads, it's not even as though it was ultra competitive...
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Re: More Salt Please, The "Sky Is Falling" NAPD Most Wanted List thread

Postby mendax » Thu Dec 31, 2015 8:42 pm

Foodcoats will be fine - they'll switch to NEXT, which will be ok because there's a lot less parasite about.

I hope everyone's excited for a glorious meta dominated by ETF Glacier, RP Glacier and BS Glacier though. Because that's gonna be fun.
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Re: More Salt Please, The "Sky Is Falling" NAPD Most Wanted List thread

Postby Cerberus » Thu Dec 31, 2015 8:57 pm

Seriously?
No rush or FA deck is going to be viable? I very much doubt that, and having spoken to a number of good players they believe with less Clot recursion NEH and similar decks are going to be fine.

There is a lot of sky is falling and salt, people need to see how things unfold. Some if the reactions I'm seeing in other places online are crazy.
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Re: More Salt Please, The "Sky Is Falling" NAPD Most Wanted List thread

Postby mendax » Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:23 pm

Sync will be ok, but I fully expect the meta to be completely dominated by glaciers.
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Re: More Salt Please, The "Sky Is Falling" NAPD Most Wanted List thread

Postby Brendan » Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:50 pm

Yeah, I'm with Dave on this. I'm expecting a lot of FA.
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Re: More Salt Please, The "Sky Is Falling" NAPD Most Wanted List thread

Postby Panda with issues... » Fri Jan 01, 2016 12:49 am

NEH FA comes out a big winner here. It just needs to reassess the ice suite. Crim with desperado sec testing and sucker got worse, as did PPVP Kate with clot, and those were the best counters.
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Re: More Salt Please, The "Sky Is Falling" NAPD Most Wanted List thread

Postby Xenasis » Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:47 am

Cerberus wrote:There is a lot of sky is falling and salt, people need to see how things unfold. Some if the reactions I'm seeing in other places online are crazy.


I hate these changes because I don't think functional errata is good for the game. I want to see the game thrive, and these changes are going to hinder that goal, not aid it. Nerfing the 'best decks' will not make the metagame more diverse, it will just change it (something you can do just by printing different cards, see also: Criminal's rises and falls). These are based on an awful philosophy and all of the downsides don't even add to one upside.

To be clear, I'm not annoyed at this because they've nerfed my favourite deck or I think the new metagame will be bad or they didn't nerf a card I wanted them to nerf or whatever else. This isn't going to break the game and the metagame will probably be just as fine as it always ever has (though no assurances there, I have no crystal ball). Functional errata and the MWL set a horrible precedent for how Damon handles cards that are good, and that's what I'm not a fan of. There will always be cards that are better than other cards. You can't fix that, and creating a barrier to entry (and unnecessary baggage) by trying to do so is not good for the game.

When entering a tournament, you need to read the FAQ for two things: you need to find out "is my deck actually legal?" and "do my cards really do what they say they do?". You didn't have to do this before and you could check whether your deck was legal and did what you'd expected by looking at your cards. Hell, even if a newbie comes to a casual play night without following the MWL, they've accidentally brought an illegal deck.

Anyway, less on design philosophy, who came out on top?

I'd say NEH, Blue Sun and Noise did pretty well here. NEH got a lot of nerfs but its worst matchup also got hit extremely hard which I think is the more important bit.
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Re: More Salt Please, The "Sky Is Falling" NAPD Most Wanted List thread

Postby Brendan » Fri Jan 01, 2016 10:26 am

I absolutely agree that adding rules not on the cards is bad for the game.
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Re: More Salt Please, The "Sky Is Falling" NAPD Most Wanted List thread

Postby cwoac » Fri Jan 01, 2016 10:28 am

Panda with issues... wrote:NEH FA comes out a big winner here. It just needs to reassess the ice suite. Crim with desperado sec testing and sucker got worse, as did PPVP Kate with clot, and those were the best counters.


It gives further shift towards the team sponsorship variant (pushing more, cheaper agendas as you don't have such an early secure r&d and needing the recursion).

But still, out of NEH, you can run 3xastro, 3xsscg, 3xteam sponsor, 2xbiotic, or drop the biotic, a ts and a sscg for 2xarchitect (or many variations of the above). Yeah, you have to lose eli, but wall of static does fill the same slot (if worse), and you run explodapaloozas instead of NAPDs, but what you are left with is still very recognizable as an NEH FA deck.

I think the clone chip nerf hurting clot recursion is the main reason for sscg being on the list as well, frankly.
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Re: More Salt Please, The "Sky Is Falling" NAPD Most Wanted List thread

Postby cwoac » Fri Jan 01, 2016 10:33 am

Brendan wrote:I absolutely agree that adding rules not on the cards is bad for the game.


There have always been rules not printed on the cards - consider all the tweet/faq rulings on card interactions. Few people would claim that they would come to the same conclusions as all the interaction rulings just from reading the cards (foundry/abt anyone?).


The intent behind the mechanism is elegant enough, if seemingly ham-fisted in it's initial revision (Had it just been two or three cards, I think there would have been a much smaller reaction) and if it was the single thing 'not printed on the card balancing act' then that would also be alright. I'd say the worst thing is introducing this mechanism (the list) at the same time as also doing the first errata (wnp).
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Re: More Salt Please, The "Sky Is Falling" NAPD Most Wanted List thread

Postby Brendan » Fri Jan 01, 2016 10:40 am

cwoac wrote:
Brendan wrote:I absolutely agree that adding rules not on the cards is bad for the game.


There have always been rules not printed on the cards - consider all the tweet/faq rulings on card interactions. Few people would claim that they would come to the same conclusions as all the interaction rulings just from reading the cards (foundry/abt anyone?).


I think those were bad for the game. But they generally just required a TO to come over mid-game when that particular weird interaction was stumbled across by two players who don't stay up all night reading the FAQ (like the rest of us obsessed fools).

There will be a lot of illegal decks are store champs.
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Re: More Salt Please, The "Sky Is Falling" NAPD Most Wanted List thread

Postby Cerberus » Fri Jan 01, 2016 10:44 am

I don't have a problem with people thinking this new system is bad or having an opinion about the cards on the list. That's all normal and people like yourself Andrew who have well thought out and well written points are good for the discussion.

What I find pretty crazy is people who are saying the game has been broken or who are selling their collections because of it. It's totally unknown how the game will go or look in a months time.
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Re: More Salt Please, The "Sky Is Falling" NAPD Most Wanted List thread

Postby Panda with issues... » Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:15 am

Cerberus wrote:I don't have a problem with people thinking this new system is bad or having an opinion about the cards on the list. That's all normal and people like yourself Andrew who have well thought out and well written points are good for the discussion.

What I find pretty crazy is people who are saying the game has been broken or who are selling their collections because of it. It's totally unknown how the game will go or look in a months time.


I think this is the most elegant way of running a restricted list I've seen.

My general opinion on it after discussing all last night with Brendan (whatever, best NYE I've ever had tbh :D ) is that most of the cards on here deserve it. If you accept that Jackson didn't make the list because he's a necessity, then it's a list generally of problem cards, with a few exceptions.

Opinions:
Having both APP and SSCG on the list is a large hit to NBN that seems mostly targeted at the fact they don't have to pay influence for Jackson. - Obviously this is FFG's fault in the first place as it should have been a neutral card. See above for why it doesn't matter for NEH. The new NBN ice suite is probably ok for them to handle this hit.

Eli and Architect are silly cards at their cost and influence level. Architect is one of the lurching cards that was over the power threshold because the parasite package (Parasucker and clone chip) was too dominant. It's a shame, because it's one of the more interesting subroutine effects in the game, but it never should have been untrashable. Parasite shenanigans were at least partly highly efficient because they provided an efficient solution to miscosted (in terms of money AND influence) ice like Eli.

NAPD contract should have been 1 inf from the start, so no issues here.

Desperado should obviously be on this list. It's the most broken card in netrunner and needed cutting down to size. Criminal is in a rough place at the moment, so I'll let siphon slide. I don't think any basic econ cards should ever be on this list, which makes putting prepaid on it seem stupid and vindictive. Shaper needed a hit, but putting a neutral econ card on the list is very silly, especially since the neutral runners need all the help they can get. Siphon is appropriately costed in terms of influence out of faction anyway tbh.

No Weyland cards on the list is fine. The problem Weyland cards were only an issue when imported into NBN, and APP and SSCG costing influence means you can't threaten the kill AND FA as effectively.

No Jinteki cards on the list is silly, and smacks of favouritism from Damon. This may offend people, but it's currently what I think. Caprice should definitely be on this list.

Shaper needed some hits. I'm not convinced clone chip was the answer. I think SMC might have been the better card to put on the list. I think Film Critic might have deserved a spot too. Lady is way over the power level of some of the other cards and thoroughly deserves to be on the list. Putting clone chip on the list really hurts anarchs and removes another way of providing a plan B for criminal for silly Batty stuff etc.

Yog.0 was always a problem card, because of the badly undercosted nature of the anarch breaker suite. I'm ok with this being on the list for now, but mimic seems like the currently more splashed card (and equally undercosted). Parasite probably deserves to be on this list, but Faust DEFINITELY should be.
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Re: More Salt Please, The "Sky Is Falling" NAPD Most Wanted List thread

Postby mendax » Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:37 am

I mean, if you're going to run a restricted list then this isn't the worst way to do it, but I'm entirely unconvinced of the need for a restricted list and the idea of Damon playing whack-a-mole with the meta is quite frankly terrifying. I know he wants us all to play PE garbage and get rekt by Exploratory romp or w/e, but pushing this onto the meta is just a bit pathetic really.
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Re: More Salt Please, The "Sky Is Falling" NAPD Most Wanted List thread

Postby massisi » Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:51 am

It isn't a restricted list per se though just modifying stats, if netrunner was a PC game then this would just be a balance update and no one would think the sky was falling so I think that overall this is good for the game but worse for the community since it adds an extra layer of complexity which would be absent if netrunner was a PC game.
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Re: More Salt Please, The "Sky Is Falling" NAPD Most Wanted List thread

Postby Nemamiah » Fri Jan 01, 2016 12:23 pm

mendax wrote:I mean, if you're going to run a restricted list then this isn't the worst way to do it, but I'm entirely unconvinced of the need for a restricted list and the idea of Damon playing whack-a-mole with the meta is quite frankly terrifying. I know he wants us all to play PE garbage and get rekt by Exploratory romp or w/e, but pushing this onto the meta is just a bit pathetic really.


Bit hyperbolic, Rob? ;)

Is worth pointing out that FFG have more information than we do. If they believe that Prepaid Kate and Fastrobiotics are going to dominate the meets for the next year, bearing in mind the cards that are coming out, then this list is sensible.

I actually think it's fairly restrained and sensible anyway. They haven't gone overboard with the cards on there, and I can see the arguements for all of the entries to a lesser or greater degree.
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Re: More Salt Please, The "Sky Is Falling" NAPD Most Wanted List thread

Postby Chimpster » Fri Jan 01, 2016 12:46 pm

Nemamiah wrote:
Is worth pointing out that FFG have more information than we do. If they believe that Prepaid Kate and Fastrobiotics are going to dominate the meets for the next year, bearing in mind the cards that are coming out, then this list is sensible.

I actually think it's fairly restrained and sensible anyway. They haven't gone overboard with the cards on there, and I can see the arguements for all of the entries to a lesser or greater degree.


Completely agreed. Was surprised at clone chips and lady but it makes sense given the nature of the corp nerfs.

All the corp changes make perfect sense and we can all agree that they were overpowered or undercosted cards. Maybe the ommission of caprice is a surprise but there are cards coming in the next cycle to seriously cause her problems.
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Re: More Salt Please, The "Sky Is Falling" NAPD Most Wanted List thread

Postby Kesterer » Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:17 pm

I'm not sure I agree with calling this an elegant solution; it seems to have a lot of collateral damage because of FFG's aversion to bans. PPVP is pretty mediocre outside of Kate, for example, but it gets restricted anyway? If they wanted to deal with Astrobiotics and PPVP Kate as decks, banning NEH and Kate would have been the cleanest ways to do so, and would have dealt with those IDs' dominance in their respective factions too. It all seems a bit ham-fisted to me.

Hearing about FFG's plans for continuing management would be good too. I just spent a couple of weeks' worth of free time testing and practicing decks for the competitive season - apparently that time was now wasted and I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a little narked. If there are going to be regular additions to the restricted list, then I want to know so I waste less time on this kind of thing in future.
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Re: More Salt Please, The "Sky Is Falling" NAPD Most Wanted List thread

Postby Brendan » Fri Jan 01, 2016 7:17 pm

My suspicion of the reasoning behind PPVP is that FFG belive the game design critically hinges on sustainable, long-term economy not being viable outside of significant MU investment or resources. I'm almost certain the PPVP economy package was was unintended and untested.
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Re: More Salt Please, The "Sky Is Falling" NAPD Most Wanted List thread

Postby MartinP » Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:29 pm

Kesterer wrote:I'm not sure I agree with calling this an elegant solution; it seems to have a lot of collateral damage because of FFG's aversion to bans. PPVP is pretty mediocre outside of Kate, for example, but it gets restricted anyway? If they wanted to deal with Astrobiotics and PPVP Kate as decks, banning NEH and Kate would have been the cleanest ways to do so, and would have dealt with those IDs' dominance in their respective factions too. It all seems a bit ham-fisted to me.

Hearing about FFG's plans for continuing management would be good too. I just spent a couple of weeks' worth of free time testing and practicing decks for the competitive season - apparently that time was now wasted and I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a little narked. If there are going to be regular additions to the restricted list, then I want to know so I waste less time on this kind of thing in future.


Can't really outright ban Kate as she's a coreset ID... that's a pretty naff thing to do to any new-starters!

I'm not fussed either way about the changes - I don't play netrunner because I enjoy playing PPvP Kate or what ever deck happens to be the strongest, I play and go to tournements because I have a blast travelling with local meta mates and catching up with or engaging in rivalries with other people from other metas! :D

Whether this is a poor way to amend what is top tier or not won't bother me until the playing and travelling to play stop being fun. Right now I'm even more psyched to play in store champs post-NAPD changes going live because everything is getting shaken up :)

Edit: And it's not like cards can't be taken off the list in the future, if the list proves to be a poor decision (Or rather if certain cards being on the list prove to be a poor decision!)
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Re: More Salt Please, The "Sky Is Falling" NAPD Most Wanted List thread

Postby Sixtyten » Sat Jan 02, 2016 12:39 am

Panda with issues... wrote:Eli and Architect are silly cards at their cost and influence level. Architect is one of the lurching cards that was over the power threshold because the parasite package (Parasucker and clone chip) was too dominant. It's a shame, because it's one of the more interesting subroutine effects in the game, but it never should have been untrashable. Parasite shenanigans were at least partly highly efficient because they provided an efficient solution to miscosted (in terms of money AND influence) ice like Eli.


architect is untrashable to avoid installing over itself and other shennanigans. It was a deliberate design decision. The parasite/apoc issue is a side effect.
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Re: More Salt Please, The "Sky Is Falling" NAPD Most Wanted List thread

Postby Panda with issues... » Sat Jan 02, 2016 12:58 am

Sixtyten wrote:
Panda with issues... wrote:Eli and Architect are silly cards at their cost and influence level. Architect is one of the lurching cards that was over the power threshold because the parasite package (Parasucker and clone chip) was too dominant. It's a shame, because it's one of the more interesting subroutine effects in the game, but it never should have been untrashable. Parasite shenanigans were at least partly highly efficient because they provided an efficient solution to miscosted (in terms of money AND influence) ice like Eli.


architect is untrashable to avoid installing over itself and other shennanigans. It was a deliberate design decision. The parasite/apoc issue is a side effect.


And yet Crick didn't get that benefit. Not that it needed it. They could have just specified couldn't be trashed by the corp.

According to Kiv's video Calimsha is playing proco. How the mighty have fallen.

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