Clones Are Not People: Democracy and Dogma Is Now Available

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Clones Are Not People: Democracy and Dogma Is Now Available

Postby unitled » Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:47 am

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/n ... ot-people/

So the card that everyone has been waiting for in the Mumbad cycle finally drops: Political Operative!

We've got a new ID and a cycle of assets that have an effect at the start of your turn if they don't have ice defending them. Also, what looks like a strong Weyland card? Surely some mistake?

Has anyone had a chance to run the new cards? Do we think Political Operative will shore up Criminals (or runners in general) against glacier? Does a Nero build have to include Au Revoir?
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Re: Clones Are Not People: Democracy and Dogma Is Now Available

Postby MouseChan » Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:59 am

N7 certainly does not need Au Revoir. His strength comes from, no sentry will hit you ever. Where most crims run 3 faerie for that privilege. Okay unlike fae he doesn't break the thing, but it means you can aggressively facecheck them unrezzed archers/ichis/assassins/guard? and the worst it's going to do is cause you to jack out.
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Re: Clones Are Not People: Democracy and Dogma Is Now Available

Postby GuyCliquil » Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:32 am

So the card that everyone has been waiting for in the Mumbad cycle finally drops: Political Operative!


Ah.... My deck's brief foray with the Unregistered S&W is likely at an end. I'm gonna miss you your horribly influence expensive, slow, inconvenience of a card. I will miss saying "I shoot Caprice in the face" . We need some shorthand for Poltical Operativing something...

Has anyone had a chance to run the new cards? Do we think Political Operative will shore up Criminals (or runners in general) against glacier?


I am actually curious as to whether 1 Pol OP will be enough to do the job. Personally I find that it is only Caprice that causes me real problems - both Batty and Ash are "OK I have to run AGAIN" cards whereas Caprice is "I can run and run and run and run and get no joy" which is what makes her unique. I think there might be some corps that attempt to tax the Pol Op enough but now they have to Spam Caprices, which is always a difficult game plan. I think it will, at the very least, make people less willing to go in that direction.

We've got a new ID and a cycle of assets that have an effect at the start of your turn if they don't have ice defending them


One of which... Bio Ethics... seems, at least to my eye, to be utterly bannanas and able to tip some IG kill decks (and some PEs riding their coatails) into seriously bone crunchingly strong. I think it will be as legitimately necessary to pack some "answers" to this deck as it is to carry an answer to Fast Advance. I think the Weyland card might be strong, but it will pale slightly to the others. Though I can see it being annoying in Gagarin with Paywall Implimentation. Or Blue Sun of course.

Those are my thoughts anyway.

Does a Nero build have to include Au Revoir?


Ha! I think the only card it has to include is Emergency Shutdown.

All in all I think there are lots of exciting and cool cards. There are grumblings on various fora (plural of forum in my head even though it clearly isn't) that Bioethics is a "sky falling in" card. We've heard it all before of course, but I must admit I am struggling to find decent answers - especially outside of the Anarch card pool.
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Re: Clones Are Not People: Democracy and Dogma Is Now Available

Postby MouseChan » Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:36 am

Pol Op means corps have to trash jackson when you run HQ now if Jacko is rezzed and agendas in the bin. Else

Run HQ, get in.

Click: Install Pol Op.

Paid Window: Trash Pol Op and Jackson
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Re: Clones Are Not People: Democracy and Dogma Is Now Available

Postby unitled » Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:41 am

GuyCliquil wrote:I am actually curious as to whether 1 Pol OP will be enough to do the job. Personally I find that it is only Caprice that causes me real problems - both Batty and Ash are "OK I have to run AGAIN" cards whereas Caprice is "I can run and run and run and run and get no joy" which is what makes her unique. I think there might be some corps that attempt to tax the Pol Op enough but now they have to Spam Caprices, which is always a difficult game plan. I think it will, at the very least, make people less willing to go in that direction.


The thing is, even in the situation where they rez an Ash... Polop (poop?) is a card which says 'gain the number of creds you would spend on a second run'. I really think it's a great card, and I'd struggle to find a reason not to run 2 in Crim (especially with a Geist deck; some tech traders there and suddenly it's gaining you cash and cards and OH MY my poor heart...).

GuyCliquil wrote:Ha! I think the only card it has to include is Emergency Shutdown.


For me, I actually also really love Faerie in Nero. His ability, Shutdown, Crescentus and Faerie means it's virtually impossible for the corp to stick a sentry on you, and likely won't even both trying to rez them. Faerie goes from 'early game facecheck protection' to 'super efficient one shot breaker' allowing you, as crims should, to make surgical runs.

Also, can I just say the waistcoat game is on point in this pack? Not only Nero, but Sensie Actor's Union too.
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Re: Clones Are Not People: Democracy and Dogma Is Now Available

Postby Chimpster » Tue Apr 05, 2016 11:37 pm

Definitely considering po-op for my Kate deck. Probably just a one of at this stage but will be a damn useful one.

Really interested by the Jinteki cards this pack, especially political dealings. Surprised that more people aren't making more of a fuss about it, especially as Jins has a decent number of 3/2's. Have a clones are not people down at the same time and you've got a recipe for fast advancing 3 pointers, all in faction. A little bit combo wombo but definitely some nice options for them this pack.
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Re: Clones Are Not People: Democracy and Dogma Is Now Available

Postby mendax » Tue Apr 05, 2016 11:42 pm

The combination of Bioethics and MCH being 1 influence makes IG even more nuts.
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Re: Clones Are Not People: Democracy and Dogma Is Now Available

Postby unitled » Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:23 am

mendax wrote:The combination of Bioethics and MCH being 1 influence makes IG even more nuts.


Man, I've not had the misfortune to play against this just yet... Starting to see lots of Archives Interfaces cropping up in various decks, it actually made one of my games pretty tough as I was running a fast advance/recursion deck with Advanced Assembly Lines and Team Sponsorships!
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Re: Clones Are Not People: Democracy and Dogma Is Now Available

Postby MartinP » Wed Apr 06, 2016 10:30 am

unitled wrote:
mendax wrote:The combination of Bioethics and MCH being 1 influence makes IG even more nuts.


Man, I've not had the misfortune to play against this just yet... Starting to see lots of Archives Interfaces cropping up in various decks, it actually made one of my games pretty tough as I was running a fast advance/recursion deck with Advanced Assembly Lines and Team Sponsorships!


Yeah people have decided to pretty much insta-hard counter the upcoming IG decks which is quite interesting. It's a really weird meta shift and I've got to wonder what silver bullets are people not including to fit in archives interface.

MCH is really cool even outside of IG, want to fit it into a Gagarin deck once Jeeves lands.
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Re: Clones Are Not People: Democracy and Dogma Is Now Available

Postby Nemamiah » Wed Apr 06, 2016 10:51 am

There are a couple of different flavours of IG deck doing the rounds right now. Their biggest problem is probably that one of their worst match-ups is with Whizzard, and he's still the strongest runner deck after DemoDog.
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Re: Clones Are Not People: Democracy and Dogma Is Now Available

Postby GuyCliquil » Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:38 am

How does that matchup playout? I've not been able to play much recently, and when I do I'm not playing either IG or Whizzard, but in my head I feel like Whizzard has no way to expose, and runs rather close to the "insta death". Do the 3 recurring credits really help trash all that the runner wants to trash on IG's side of the board?

If possible could you elaborate? Just curious - I'm not in "Internet argument" mode here! :lol:
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Re: Clones Are Not People: Democracy and Dogma Is Now Available

Postby mendax » Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:55 am

I've been struggling much more vs Levy Noise than anything else, as running him out of imps is not so easy. Having said that, I'm something like 15 - 0 with this IG deck so far, so it's not been too bad.

Genetics pavillion is basically the final kill piece, to get to the situation where you're doing a passive 3 net damage and they can only draw 2.
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Re: Clones Are Not People: Democracy and Dogma Is Now Available

Postby Nemamiah » Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:17 pm

GuyCliquil wrote:How does that matchup playout? I've not been able to play much recently, and when I do I'm not playing either IG or Whizzard, but in my head I feel like Whizzard has no way to expose, and runs rather close to the "insta death". Do the 3 recurring credits really help trash all that the runner wants to trash on IG's side of the board?

If possible could you elaborate? Just curious - I'm not in "Internet argument" mode here! :lol:


Yup. Ideally Whizzard sets up some early economy and Wyldside; the Chronotype part of that combo is actually less important. He keeps your rezzed assets in check, either by just paying the increased trash cost (minus his three credits, obviously) or selectively running archives in order to keep the costs down. He'll get a medium down, and try to win off centrals and deep digs.

Now, that's obviously just the game plan, and the IG player will try to disrupt it however possible. It's also assuming that we're talking about the version of IG that tries to lock the runner out with Bioethics rather than kill them with Ronin and Hiro; that's a different build with different lines of play. There are a couple of ways that Whizzard can lose (either because he trashes the wrong assets, or the Corp manages to score a Chronos Project at a key point), but essentially two extra cards and three extra credits per turn almost completely nullifies what that IG deck is trying to do.
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Re: Clones Are Not People: Democracy and Dogma Is Now Available

Postby GuyCliquil » Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:02 pm

Now, that's obviously just the game plan, and the IG player will try to disrupt it however possible. It's also assuming that we're talking about the version of IG that tries to lock the runner out with Bioethics rather than kill them with Ronin and Hiro; that's a different build with different lines of play


That's interesting. I assumed that Bioethics was being used as another Neural, kept face down like a trap to be sprung along with the Hiro and Ronin.

Is that Ronin/Hiro trap game stronger against Whizzard?
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Re: Clones Are Not People: Democracy and Dogma Is Now Available

Postby Nemamiah » Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:25 pm

The current flavour of the month uses Bioethics to basically lock the runner out; you're taking three net damage every turn, get pinged by the occasional EMP, can't trash anything without many credits and taking even more net damage, and then you pretty much give up on the game, Netrunner and life in general.

The more traditional IG build spams Mushin to stick out triple advanced cards, then forces the runner to guess which ones are Ronin and which ones are Cerebral Overwriters. It is better against Whizzard, but it's much more swingy because if the runner guesses right then you just lose.
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Re: Clones Are Not People: Democracy and Dogma Is Now Available

Postby Panda with issues... » Wed Apr 06, 2016 7:15 pm

Nemamiah wrote:The current flavour of the month uses Bioethics to basically lock the runner out; you're taking three net damage every turn, get pinged by the occasional EMP, can't trash anything without many credits and taking even more net damage, and then you pretty much give up on the game, Netrunner and life in general.

snip.


So what's the line of play for the runner here then? Just play wyldside so you can draw more cards like you're probably already doing? I guess you have to run archives aggressively and often in order to be able to clear out the Bio Ethics associations and then archives interface them? Play eater so you can flip archives without accessing cards? Play Noise and just mill them out? How do you actually win the game as the runner rather than just survive? If this deck is everywhere is there any point playing anything other than Anarch? (I know most people think there's little reason to play anything other than anarch already). Double Levy? Just go to time every game in a tournament (if you can survive...)? Will synthetic blood see play?
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Re: Clones Are Not People: Democracy and Dogma Is Now Available

Postby Nemamiah » Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:02 am

Yeah, those are all valid questions and to be honest I don't know the answer to all of them (nor am I really an authority on this sort of thing).

I think that no matter how good it gets, Industrial Genomics will always be underrepresented at tournaments because it creates time pressure in the rounds, and certain people don't consider it to be fun (either to play or for opponents). Having said that, if it's strong it's bound to show up to some extent, and if it's good enough it will end towards the top of swiss pairings.

If they're playing the Bioethics lock, the key is to be able to take it apart cheaply and before the jaws really clamp around you. So yeah, run archives, find and get rid of the museums, hostile infrastructures and bioethics committees as quickly as possible, those are good lines of play. There are actually meta cards in every faction (Whizzard, Imp, Archives Interface, Desperado + Security Testing, Paricia, even Astrolabe to a lesser extent), so I don't think it should necessarily dictate that you have to play any one thing.

As far as actually winning goes, just be patient and keep track of where the agendas probably are. There are only eight, but they're never going to try scoring them (except for the occasional Chronos Protocol). Keep probing centrals, and look for times when the Corp is low in credits as a time to really hunt out Future Perfects (this will usually be early in the game).
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