Thoughts on Crim (how do I fit PolOp/Councilman??)

User avatar
shanodin
Posts: 98
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:48 pm
Location: Lancaster
Contact:

Thoughts on Crim (how do I fit PolOp/Councilman??)

Postby shanodin » Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:28 am

So I posted this over at Stimhack but wanted to see what the Netrunners of the UK reckon.

I'm currently looking to make space in my Leela build for at least one each of PolOp and Councilman (I think the people saying that Councilman is just a PolOp for people who don't want to run HQ are just flat out wrong, and they both have very different applications). News Team has kinda fallen out of favour so I'm thinking that Hostage and Data Dealer have done their time.

I also really want to explore Freedom Through Equality - With GFI being so prevalent, I can't even count the number of games where I've stalled out at 6 points and tried to sell my soul for a Notoriety. My main concern is that it needs to be played early game when Leela is scoring points rapidly, which means probably needing to play 2 or 3... but I think the 2nd and 3rd will be dead most of the time. It's also easy for NBN to handle Runner currents by just scoring a 2/1.

I've had fleeting thoughts of going to 1 Mongoose and 1 Gingerbread, but that's mainly when I'm against HB and 6cr for Vikram makes me sad (especially when R&D is Architect - Ichi 1.0 - Vikram - Eli. The mere thought of Archer is enough to make me put down the Gingerbread.

What are your thoughts, my fellow crims?
See you later, Space Cowboy.
User avatar
Cerberus
Posts: 1087
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:11 pm
Location: Cheltenham

Re: Thoughts on Crim (how do I fit PolOp/Councilman??)

Postby Cerberus » Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:23 pm

I like criminal...

But I've got a question for your question, why do you think councilman is worth it over political operative? What makes it better?
User avatar
shanodin
Posts: 98
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:48 pm
Location: Lancaster
Contact:

Re: Thoughts on Crim (how do I fit PolOp/Councilman??)

Postby shanodin » Mon Apr 11, 2016 8:15 am

I don't necessarily think Councilman is better than PolOp - just different. I think they look very similar but marginal differences in timings mean that (a key example) with PolOp the corp has a window to use Jackson's remove from game ability before PO can affect it, whereas Councilman can't. Additionally, one of crim's key weaknesses is the devastating effect of rig trashing from things like Keegan Lane/Marcus Batty. This can stop that (as well as other trash to use stuff) from happening and let you deal with the problem on your terms.
See you later, Space Cowboy.
User avatar
Rotage
Posts: 185
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 12:48 pm
Location: Aldershot

Re: Thoughts on Crim (how do I fit PolOp/Councilman??)

Postby Rotage » Mon Apr 11, 2016 8:31 am

I also feel they combo well together as well, for example with both installed if the corp wants to rez a Sansan on their turn then you could use councilman to stop them and if they rez it on your turn then you use Polop to trash it, same applies to Jackson as well and they may be other scenarios where this applies. The question is if it is worth a deck slot
Aldershot - Where the streets are paved with scorch

Swiftie - You will got to the special hell for taking Dyper to a 4 person event
User avatar
GuyCliquil
Posts: 935
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:21 pm
Location: Oxford

Re: Thoughts on Crim (how do I fit PolOp/Councilman??)

Postby GuyCliquil » Mon Apr 11, 2016 8:38 am

I'm more of a Shaper really, but I do think it might be worth asking if fitting in both for the dream scenario of having both at once is going to come up consistently enough to make slotting it worthwhile?

I mean, i am fairly pessimistic on card draw, so I only have 1 offs I can search for.

And if you're putting them in what are you sacrificing?

Anyway, I'll be off here doing bullshit whilst you criminals chat away with your devastating events.
"Guy, you are often right for all the wrong reasons. And if you are wrong, it is always for right reasons." - Brendan .
The Praetor of Jank
User avatar
Nemamiah
Posts: 651
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2014 7:44 pm
Location: Exeter

Re: Thoughts on Crim (how do I fit PolOp/Councilman??)

Postby Nemamiah » Mon Apr 11, 2016 9:57 am

My personal opinion is that they're very different cards, and you should go through the following thought process before including either:

1. What are my problem matchups?
2. Does Councilman or Political Operative help that match-up, and if so how much?
3. How much does including it affect both those and other matchups, in terms of deck slots and potentially influence?
4. Is there any other synergies in your deck that make either card particularly worth playing (like Political Operative and Geist)

This is really what you should do whenever tweaking a deck with whatever card, but it's especially relevant with these cards because the answer to question 2 is very different depending on which one you use.

Councilman stops people rezzing assets, but has to be on the table in advance. It's not very good against glacier decks, because if they're pre-warned about it's existence they can rez the relevant card once at the end of their turn, and then again at the start of your turn, thus powering through your protection. It is, however, pretty good against NBN because it stops the rez of crucial assets (SanSan and Cyberdex) that enable them to score, and has hilarious interactions with Jackson and agendas in archives.

Political Operative does the polar opposite. It's good against glacier, because you can trash their defensive assets at the correct point without allowing them a chance to fire (with the notable exception of Marcus Batty). On the other hand, it's far less impactful against fast advance, because it doesn't interrupt their scoring plan with either SanSan (where the agenda will be scored before you can trash it) or Cyberdex (which they trash themselves before you can anyway).

So there's the answer to your question. What's your deck good against, and what's it struggling against? How many of those decks are you expecting to play against? What cards are you going to have to take out to make room, and does that actually change the balance of your deck? (For example, if you end up cutting a Legwork for a Political Operative, you're inadvertently hurting your strong matchup to make your weak one better).

This really just scratches the surface and there's probably a whole article's worth of theory on how and when to use meta cards (which these both are), but hopefully it helps.

I do agree with Guy on one point though; I think you need at least two of whichever one you end up choosing to really make an impact. They're one-of, mostly unsearchable cards (thanks, Artist Colony!) that you can't easily recur.
Will dance for Laurie Points
User avatar
Brendan
Posts: 1274
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:09 pm
Location: Oxford

Re: Thoughts on Crim (how do I fit PolOp/Councilman??)

Postby Brendan » Mon Apr 11, 2016 11:45 am

Nemamiah is spot on with the commentary again.

Nemamiah wrote:I do agree with Guy on one point though; I think you need at least two of whichever one you end up choosing to really make an impact. They're one-of, mostly unsearchable cards (thanks, Artist Colony!) that you can't easily recur.

On the subject of Artist Colony, I do want to point out that Logos is very similar in functionality, and doesn't rely on a two card combo. With Desperado/Security Testing shut down extremely easily by any non-asset spam deck, I'm looking much harder at alternative consoles, and Logos is becoming more of a big deal as more in faction 'silver bullet' type effects appear. The exception is Stealth/Sucker decks, that build their deck stacking run effects to make it very difficult to turn off Security Testing.
User avatar
GuyCliquil
Posts: 935
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:21 pm
Location: Oxford

Re: Thoughts on Crim (how do I fit PolOp/Councilman??)

Postby GuyCliquil » Mon Apr 11, 2016 2:45 pm

Logos is a weird one; I do see the tutoring appeal but it demands a more "sit back" Criminals style. As Brendan points out Desperado is absolutely perfect for the fast, ever running Criminal. I, personally, have always been fond of the surgical strike - running only when it is the right time. I've found that that style can be a little less natural in Criminal. Part of the strength of Account Siphon is that it absolutely should put the Corp on the backfoot, and it is only possible to land them perfectly if the Corp is not set up for them.

I daresay there are players that can, and will, beat me with a slower Criminal, but it feels slightly contrary to the card pool that Criminals typically work from, and when they are at their most successful (with contrast of course).

And if you're not using either Stealth with recurring credits (that you want to utilise) or Datasucker then what breaker suite is being used? That is a big question for Criminals at the moment imho - certainly with various horrible codegates going around the place, especially out of NBN.
"Guy, you are often right for all the wrong reasons. And if you are wrong, it is always for right reasons." - Brendan .
The Praetor of Jank
User avatar
Brendan
Posts: 1274
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:09 pm
Location: Oxford

Re: Thoughts on Crim (how do I fit PolOp/Councilman??)

Postby Brendan » Mon Apr 11, 2016 2:55 pm

I think if you are Criminal, you are:

1) Running Stealth/Datausucker, with Desperado/Sec Testing, probably best out of Andromeda.
2) Running Geist, but he is terrible against asset spam. I think there might well be a build that uses Spy Camera instead of the B&E suite, but I haven't found an optimal version yet. It will probably still suck against asset spam.
3) Running Leela, with Desperado cheap fast breakers and just abandoning all hope on the glacier matchups and sobbing into yellow code gates.
4) Running Leela with Logos, and avoiding breaking ice at all.

Paying real money to break ice sucks, and I am frankly allergic to the whole idea.
User avatar
shanodin
Posts: 98
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:48 pm
Location: Lancaster
Contact:

Re: Thoughts on Crim (how do I fit PolOp/Councilman??)

Postby shanodin » Tue Apr 12, 2016 9:24 am

My breaker suite as it stands:

2x Corroder ••••
2x Faerie
1x Femme Fatale
1x Gordian Blade •••
2x Mongoose
1x Peacock

I am very much aware that in cases where Mimic can be used it is almost always better than Mongoose, however the 1 influence allows me to use Gordian over Zu, which hugely improves the glacier matchup, especially Foodcoats with their double stacked Turings. The utility of having a non-fixed strength, in faction sentry breaker which isn't as expensive as Femme or Garotte, is huge.

Logos is a cool card but I want to be ahead of the Corp, stealing agendas and disrupting their board state as much as possible in the early game. Logos needs a bit too much sit-back-and-wait.

I agree that one of each probably isn't idea but argh they are both so relevant right now. As for what decks I struggle with, probably kill decks. I get myself dead all the damn time. That's player error rather than problems with the deck.
See you later, Space Cowboy.

Return to “Netrunner Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests