Pretty Fed up

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Sincil Banks
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Pretty Fed up

Postby Sincil Banks » Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:21 pm

Just felt I had to get this off my chest...

I've played something in the region of 50 games including the Oxford store championship, in that time I've won 3 whole games. 1 each against the other bottom 2 players at Oxford and then 1 against Evilgaz in the league when his R&D spat out agendas.

That means I've got something like a 3 and 47 record. My morale is rock bottom and nothing I try seems to work...I don't play just to win, but even so this is so bad it's depressing.

I've just spent 4 hours on OCTGN and not won a single game, I am completely clueless how to get out of this rut...
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Chimpster
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Re: Pretty Fed up

Postby Chimpster » Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:24 pm

First things first I suppose - let's have a look at the deck lists you've been running. If we can eliminate deck construction (which is often the real root of problems I find), then we can start to look at possible piloting errors and maybe offer some tips on how to improve.

The fact that you're asking for help probably means that you'll be able to push on and get better, it's just about figuring out where the potential problems may lie (and believe you me, we all have them).
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Re: Pretty Fed up

Postby king_mob » Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:29 pm

That sounds pretty depressing mate. Really sorry to hear your feeling so fed up with the game :( I would feel exactly the same if i was suffering a losing streak, and indeed after the bristol SC's where i got i think 21st, i was pretty bummed out. Start of this year as well i did in fact feel the same and considered packing it in.

Its a hard thing when the hobby you are following stops being fun and starts to actually get you down, i dont think anyone who is dedicated to a hobby like ANR hasnt experienced that on some level as well.

I think spending time practicing on octgn can be good, but its not the same as face to face play so if you have a hard time on octgn dont take it as a 100% accurate representation of your skills as a player! Overall it seems to me that it just takes time. That silly 10,000 hour rule - just stick at it and know you will find yourself improving. You cant not get better, even if it feels like your stuck and going nowhere.
Memstrips deserves a chance. Memstrips.
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Re: Pretty Fed up

Postby ApeAsylum » Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:36 pm

my way to get out of a funk was to build a really silly deck that does 1 thing really really well. then when it comes off you feel like a champion and when it dies a horrible death you go, meh silly deck anyway lol, try building something completely different and bring it along on Thursday at Bam, ill do the same thing and see if we can have some fun, it has been rather serious of late with the store champs and practicing.
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Re: Pretty Fed up

Postby Vinegarymink » Sun Mar 29, 2015 6:08 pm

Don't forget that you Top 4d in Leamington Spa so its not all bad. You're obviously a proficient player who's just having a bad run at the moment and we've all been there.

My advice would be to go back to basics; pick up a proven deck from each side (probably a tournament winning decklist from somewhere) and start taking them to casual game nights and playing them on OCTGN. Playing a proven deck is a great way to isolate your playskill without worrying about whether you're making good card choices on top of that. Talk to your opponents if they're willing and try to work out what went right for you and what went wrong.

Additionally watching videos of others playing is a good way to work on your fundamentals if you're into that kind of thing. Try to work out what plays they're about to make or lines they're going to take and see how your interpretation differs from theirs.

It's also possible that you'll benefit from just going cold turkey for a week or so and will have success when you come back to the game with fresh eyes. Sometimes its easy to get bogged down in metagames and card choices that you lose sight of just making good plays. Additionally the worse of a streak you're on the more pressure you can start to put on yourself to win, and it just spirals downward.

Apeasylum's suggestion is also a good one; just start trying to have as much fun as you possibly can. Build some silly decks and suggest someone does the same. Have games that make you remember why you got into the game in the first place and soon you'll start putting less pressure on yourself.
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Sincil Banks
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Re: Pretty Fed up

Postby Sincil Banks » Sun Mar 29, 2015 6:16 pm

So I've tried playing Quinn's Gagarin deck this afternoon for 4 hours (if only to learn how to play something different from my norm..)

Clearly I suck at piloting it, no excuses there...

Gagarin Deep Space: Expanding the Horizon (Order and Chaos)

Agenda (10)
3x Project Atlas (What Lies Ahead)
3x NAPD Contract (Double Time)
2x Chronos Project (First Contact)
1x Utopia Fragment (The Source)
1x High-Risk Investment (Order and Chaos)

Asset (13)
3x PAD Campaign (Core Set)
3x Jackson Howard (Opening Moves) •••
2x GRNDL Refinery (Fear and Loathing)
3x The Root (Upstalk)
2x Constellation Protocol (Order and Chaos)

Upgrade (3)
3x Ash 2X3ZB9CY (What Lies Ahead) ••••• •

Operation (8)
3x Scorched Earth (Core Set)
3x Hedge Fund (Core Set)
2x Paywall Implementation (The Spaces Between)

Barrier (4)
2x Ice Wall (Core Set)
2x Asteroid Belt (Order and Chaos)

Code Gate (4)
2x Enigma (Core Set)
2x Wormhole (Order and Chaos)

Sentry (7)
1x Data Raven (Core Set) ••
1x Caduceus (What Lies Ahead)
2x Architect (Up and Over) ••••
2x Nebula (Order and Chaos)
1x Orion (Order and Chaos)

15 influence spent (maximum 15)
20 agenda points (between 20 and 21)
49 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Order and Chaos

My Kim deck is this bunch of old jank..

Edward Kim: Humanity's Hammer

Event (16)
3x Day Job
3x Dirty Laundry
3x I've Had Worse
2x Lucky Find ••••
2x Retrieval Run
3x Sure Gamble

Hardware (6)
1x Clone Chip ••
2x Grimoire
3x The Personal Touch ••••• •

Resource (4)
2x Earthrise Hotel
2x Kati Jones

Icebreaker (8)
2x Corroder
3x Mimic
3x Yog.0

Program (11)
2x D4v1d
3x Datasucker
2x Medium
3x Parasite
1x Self-modifying Code •••

15 influence spent (max 15)
45 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Order and Chaos

Deck built on http://netrunnerdb.co

And my NBN deck which did well for a while and now can't buy a win is this one:

Dance of the Dead - NBN Midseasons Psycho

NBN: Making News

Agenda (11)
3x AstroScript Pilot Program
2x Breaking News
3x Market Research
3x Project Beale

Asset (8)
3x Jackson Howard
3x Marked Accounts
2x Melange Mining Corp.

Upgrade (2)
2x Crisium Grid ••

Operation (13)
3x Hedge Fund
3x Midseason Replacements
3x Psychographics
1x Reclamation Order ••
3x Sweeps Week

Barrier (5)
2x Eli 1.0 ••
1x Hive ••
2x Wraparound

Code Gate (4)
1x Checkpoint ••
1x Lotus Field •
1x Tollbooth
1x Viper •

Sentry (5)
3x Data Raven
2x Virgo

Multi (1)
1x Orion •••

15 influence spent (max 15)
20 agenda points (between 20 and 21)
49 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Order and Chaos

Deck built on http://netrunnerdb.com.

My casual game nights are once a fortnight in Leamington, other than that there is simply no way for me to play Netrunner locally. Banbury is a gaming desert...
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Re: Pretty Fed up

Postby evilgaz » Sun Mar 29, 2015 6:21 pm

I lost a game to you. How do you think *I* feel!!! 11!ONE!!2!!

Only joking. :)

A good practice game is to get your opponent to talk to you about what they're thinking as you play. Might be a bit weird over OCTGN but in a face to face club environment its great for insights.

Ask vinegarymink why he ran R&D that turn. Or why he *didn't* Ask questions about what they're thinking. When you ran HQ did you know agendas were there or where you guessing? Etc.

I've done this with one of our lot in Nottingham and he's now finishing higher than me in most SC. There's some geek reference about a circle being compete in there somewhere.

There are probably some plays you're doing that could be better (can't really remember our games, soz) as there are with all of us. As long as you recognise them, or get the pointers afterwards, then you can improve.

I'm new to OCTGN and have probably lost more games through incompetence with the tool than my Netrunner ability and not paying sufficient attention to my opponent's board state etc., but one thing I would say is its full of weirdos (including us). I've had all kinds of games in my short tenure with the most bizarre behaviour and in some cases decks. So I wouldn't hold play on there as the best example of learning what the state of the art is.

There's lots of podcasts and blogs if that floats your boat, but to be honest my advise is play some friendly dudes and ask what's going on.

S'all good man.
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Re: Pretty Fed up

Postby Vinegarymink » Sun Mar 29, 2015 6:21 pm

There's a casual day at Wayland's Forge next week if you want to swing by and get some games in. We might be doing a draft which is another great way to get a fresh take on the game.
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Sincil Banks
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Re: Pretty Fed up

Postby Sincil Banks » Sun Mar 29, 2015 6:22 pm

Oh just to say I watch every youtube vid there is and regularly tune into Scorches twitch streams..
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Re: Pretty Fed up

Postby GuyCliquil » Sun Mar 29, 2015 6:53 pm

I think a lot of the advice here has been good. I would look at trying to reframe things.

First of, and I know this one is tricky, but try to enjoy losing. I'm not saying I am fantastic at this, because losing a lot can always get anyone down, no matter how much we like to tell ourselves that its only a game blah blah blah. If you DO enjoy losing then the game is fun no matter what, so I think the advice of trying to put together "fun" decks is good for that.

The second thing is to take the attitude of continual improvement. "I either win or I learn" is a good adage in Netrunner because it is such a complex game; that can lead into the taking the step back and saying "OK, WHY am I losing?"

When you are losing games how are you losing? Are you being locked out of servers as the runner? is the corp outpacing you? Is a runner outpacing you? Is your econ letting you down? There are a lot of reasons why a deck can lose. Believe me, I have tried them all. Asking WHY it has lost can help you narrow in on what is going on in the deck, or in your play, that maybe you can focus on.

One last thing to say is that I think the biggest thing is to not think you have to do anything different to get out of the rut. It WILL go away. There is a luck element to Netrunner, and that can sometimes lead people down unfortunate runs of luck, everything else being equal.
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Re: Pretty Fed up

Postby Vinegarymink » Sun Mar 29, 2015 8:34 pm

A simple thing I started doing when playing on OCTGN as runner was counting how many new random accesses out of centrals I got.
This was good for my game because

a: it taught me that every single accesses was valuable and encouraged me to run more

b: was a simple way of working out whether I'd lost because of luck or because I hadn't got a lot of accesses.

I found that you can generally expect it to take 20 random accesses out of centrals to win the game, scoring from remotes notwithstanding. The result was that sometimes I'd have games where I'd lose with the count up to something like 35, but I could just move on because I'd made the right moves and had rough luck. On the other hand when I lost a game where I felt like I'd made the right decisions, but had actually only got 12 random accesses I could look at what to do better.
Sorry if that was a bit rambling or seemed marginal, but it's one of the most concrete things I've ever done that improved my game as runner.

As for corp a back to basics approach that helped me was just to focus on having the most efficient turn possible every single turn. Admittedly this works better than Fast Advance than for any other archetype but it can help to stop focusing on the runner too much, and instead just be as efficient as you possibly can with regards to building your economy and building your boardstate. It's a handy metric than improved my corp game.
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Sincil Banks
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Re: Pretty Fed up

Postby Sincil Banks » Sun Mar 29, 2015 8:36 pm

Thanks all, good advice, I'd be interested what you think qualifies as "efficient" for the Gagarin deck? Would clicking to advance the space ice be considered efficient for example?
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Re: Pretty Fed up

Postby Pete » Sun Mar 29, 2015 8:41 pm



Only joking :) ::tip of the hat to EvilGaz::

Take a break. I felt a bit down in the dumps after coming last at one of the Near Earth Pub events in Bristol late last year. (It wasn't actually about coming last, more that I "tilted" after an annoying game and I was appalled that I could even become annoyed by an activity I regard as an amusement; so I took a break and I feel great now.)

Gaz's advice about asking for commentary is a good one. I do that a ton during games: it feels a bit "meta" asking folks to commentate on their own plays, but most folk are cool with it.

Banbury is just up the road from Oxford, so if you fancy hosting some NetRunner I'm (pretty) sure some of The Oxford Massive would train it up for a visit. You can always come visit us, it'd be cool to have a friendly runner visiting: you'll even walk away with a totally unique alt-art John Masanori card courtesy of Becky "Crusher" Smith's biro!
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Re: Pretty Fed up

Postby MouseChan » Sun Mar 29, 2015 9:11 pm

As I said to someone in a similar situation, you will keep losing if you make the same mistakes. Evulate each game, try to learn something, what could you of done different, did you not run enough, did you not strike when the iron was hot, did his bluffed junebug have a tell?

Also have someone play your decks against you and see how they play them differently, they might do things you never thought of, or be more agressive which puts more pressure on.

"A true defeat is one in which we don't lose anything"

Also take a break, as creatures humans are prone to tilting, which just makes you lose more.

Tilt. V.
(poker) To play worse than usual (often as a result of previous bad luck).

Sorry of this sounded harsh i don't mean it to be, I'm just very tired so words and sentances arn't my thing atm.
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Sincil Banks
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Re: Pretty Fed up

Postby Sincil Banks » Sun Mar 29, 2015 9:24 pm

I'm afraid the last time I came to Oxford I got 2 games all night, which wasn't a desperately productive use of my time (of which I have plenty) and money (which I don't)
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Re: Pretty Fed up

Postby Sixtyten » Sun Mar 29, 2015 10:08 pm

Hey man, sorry to hear you're in a rut. This happened to me a while back, indeed my day of TILT that was the Quinns tournament I met you at was probably my lowest point as a player, even though I had a good time. It can be hard to lose. And losing repeatedly isn't fun. I'd echo all the advice on here for sure. As you play less regularly I might avoid a break, but perhaps step away from the game being your main focus. I think the deck building part is fairly crucial. Do you want to build interesting decks or win, because for most people the two are mutually exclusive. I'd either get some practice with a popular winning deck to see *why* it wins, or decide on a particular strategy and be pleased when it comes off. After my rut I ran a tropical jinteki deck for one of the nights, beat 3 people with it laughing all the way and got crushed by keyhole. It was daft but fun and helped me reset.

Good luck anyhow!
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Re: Pretty Fed up

Postby Lord_Reynardine » Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:21 am

I have been where you are. Lots of great advice (from better players than me) here already, so this is mostly a show of solidarity. Dave (Cerberus) was very helpful and supportive of me when I was bummed out, and so this is a good place to come!

My experience was summarised by Sixty10s summary "play interesting or win". I still love to build quirky decks, but a couple of months playing tier 1 deck lists helped me isolate my play from the decks (as vinegarymink suggested). Whether or not this is similar to your experience I can't say, but I felt like giving up, and now I'm right back in it. If you top 4'd, take some heart! I recently came 12th (of 32) at Bristol SC, which was a big step up for me, but was on table 3 for the last round (losing 0-2 to Brendan) which felt like the main achievement. Modest, sure, but coming from dead last...

Also, don't ignore the medium-term tilt aspect, if you feel bummed, it's very likely to affect your play in the heat of the moment.

Anyhow, hope you find your way through, this is the best support group around!
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Re: Pretty Fed up

Postby Vinegarymink » Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:55 am

Last edited by Vinegarymink on Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Chimpster
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Re: Pretty Fed up

Postby Chimpster » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:08 am

I think that's solid advice, net deck 2 decks that you like the look of that have won stuff. Read up on them and then play them until you start winning again. Sticking with 2 good decks should see your win rate improve I would imagine, just don't expect it to happen straight away.
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Re: Pretty Fed up

Postby MasterAir » Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:16 am

If you're interested in making that Ed Kim list work, you would probably benefit from multiaccess for HQ. Either Legwork, Wanton Destruction or Nerve Agent. But otherwise it looks good. Playing Anarch is weird though, you need to be reckless but not too reckless.

I think the consensus of grabbing something that you know works and playing it to get out of your rut is a good thought. Have you fallen out of love with Kate? You seemed to do quite well with that deck. Scumbagging a few wins with the dying breaths of astrobiotics (add either architect/grail/or Ichi if you're a madman like Neil) never hurt anybody.

Put Scorched Earth back in your NBN MN deck. Give it some teeth!

Good luck, hope you get back to winning ways soon!
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Re: Pretty Fed up

Postby pruneface » Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:25 pm

I just wanna pop my head in and say that Sincil, my runner match against you in the Oxford store champs was probably the toughest I had all day. FWIW, I like to think that I'm a good judge of skill in ANR, and in my experience you're an excellent pilot. It may just be that the decks you've been playing have been letting you down.

I agree on the win or learn way of framing things. 'The courage of a true duellist isn't tested when they win, but when they lose', &c. Of course, winning feels pretty great sometimes, so I think you're right to feel fed up!
The onesie was a legitimate tactical decision.
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Re: Pretty Fed up

Postby king_mob » Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:20 pm

Memstrips deserves a chance. Memstrips.
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Sincil Banks
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Re: Pretty Fed up

Postby Sincil Banks » Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:53 pm

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king_mob
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Re: Pretty Fed up

Postby king_mob » Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:59 pm

Thats the spirit :) Time for a stream of motivational youtube videos. I'll get the ball rolling.

Memstrips deserves a chance. Memstrips.
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Re: Pretty Fed up

Postby Sixtyten » Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:21 pm

MOON MONEY!

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