Dealing with Net-Ready Eye

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Satellite Uplink
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Re: Dealing with Net-Ready Eye

Postby Satellite Uplink » Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:05 pm

There's no Ice printed that can't be broken if the Runner tries hard enough. That's not what Ice is for. Pretty much the best Ice you'll ever have is something that makes the Runner do three things to break it instead of just one.
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Satellite Uplink
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Re: Dealing with Net-Ready Eye

Postby Satellite Uplink » Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:08 pm

ApeAsylum wrote:
IQ might be a hot call as it can get up 5 STR quite efficiently


so in my Kim deck im runner 2 NRE and 1 ice carver and 3 datasuckers so getting past any ice is becoming a matter of time and draw, with 3x career fair everything gets very effeciant. Looking at some hot decklists recently i really believe the introduction of NRE with Yog/ Mimic has really changed the game for anarchs like wizzard and Kim, there abillity is strong but the problem was getting those accesses, and with NRE accesses come much easier.


And TBH what I think it's probably done most is set Anarchs back onto thinking that their terrible core set plan might be good, instead of capitalising on the strong AI plan they've been using.

Anarchs shouldn't be trying to build a Fracter/Decoder/Killer rig because they're awful at find all the pieces to put together. The AI plan gives them everything they need in one card and they've just enough draw power to reliably find that one card. As a corp player seeing Anarchs trying to use Yog.0 actually cheers me up!
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Re: Dealing with Net-Ready Eye

Postby ApeAsylum » Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:17 pm

As a corp player seeing Anarchs trying to use Yog.0 actually cheers me up


that's really interesting, ill have to just disagree with you on this one :D . when you pair up yog/mimic/corrdor and your standard ice destruction kit of datasuckers and parasites its sort of the best of both worlds, although it could be the case of jack of all trades master of none. But my current testing with a NRE breaker rig out of anarch has gone very well.
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Re: Dealing with Net-Ready Eye

Postby Satellite Uplink » Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:21 pm

ApeAsylum wrote:
As a corp player seeing Anarchs trying to use Yog.0 actually cheers me up


that's really interesting, ill have to just disagree with you on this one :D . when you pair up yog/mimic/corrdor and your standard ice destruction kit of datasuckers and parasites its sort of the best of both worlds, although it could be the case of jack of all trades master of none. But my current testing with a NRE breaker rig out of anarch has gone very well.


It is, but it's the time taken to pull that rig together and the inconsistency of seeing all the moving parts that lets you down. Is your influence going on Special Orders?

Let me put it this way - that entire rig you listed came from Core set and it's never been good before. Unless you think it was failing because of the sea of Strength 4 Code Gates you simply couldn't get past (even with Datasucker/Parasites) then I don't see what Net Ready Eyes is doing to change the situation.
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Brendan
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Re: Dealing with Net-Ready Eye

Postby Brendan » Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:27 pm

The major things that have changed are better draw (Inject, I've Had Worse) and economy (Career Fair enabling Liberated Accounts; Day Job(?), Lucky Find(?)).

I don't like Anarch with their own breakers either. They fill occasional niches in faction, but ultimately it's very easily shut down and/or takes too long to assemble. Sometimes it will crush. Sometimes you will watch a corp score Astros behind a Wraparound or whatever.
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Re: Dealing with Net-Ready Eye

Postby pruneface » Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:32 pm

Brendan wrote:The major things that have changed are better draw (Inject, I've Had Worse) and economy (Career Fair enabling Liberated Accounts; Day Job(?), Lucky Find(?)).

I don't like Anarch with their own breakers either. They fill occasional niches in faction, but ultimately it's very easily shut down and/or takes too long to assemble. Sometimes it will crush. Sometimes you will watch a corp score Astros behind a Wraparound or whatever.


I wonder if Anarch might be better at doing Katman than Katman. Parasite for small things, d4vid for big things, middle-sized atman for everything else.
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Re: Dealing with Net-Ready Eye

Postby king_mob » Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:35 pm

Atman Noise was a thing at one point wasnt it? I think atman in another ID would be better, val maybe?
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Re: Dealing with Net-Ready Eye

Postby Tim the Enchanter » Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:40 pm

I think Quetzal rather than Val. 50 card decksize is fucker if you have a wildly complicated plan of breaking ice, and Q's got a great answer to wraparound which is really annoying for this deck otherwise.
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Re: Dealing with Net-Ready Eye

Postby pruneface » Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:42 pm

king_mob wrote:Atman Noise was a thing at one point wasnt it? I think atman in another ID would be better, val maybe?


The latest hotness is Wooley's build where it's done out of Whizzard. I think it probably slots into Kim or Quetz too, depending on the meta.
The onesie was a legitimate tactical decision.
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Re: Dealing with Net-Ready Eye

Postby pruneface » Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:44 pm

Tim the Enchanter wrote:I think Quetzal rather than Val. 50 card decksize is fucker if you have a wildly complicated plan of breaking ice, and Q's got a great answer to wraparound which is really annoying for this deck otherwise.


Yeah, I think this style has to be in one of the other Anarchs. Quetz probably means you can run less D4VID if you're not doing e3 shenanigans as you don't need it for wrap.
The onesie was a legitimate tactical decision.
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Re: Dealing with Net-Ready Eye

Postby Satellite Uplink » Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:45 pm

Brendan wrote:The major things that have changed are better draw (Inject, I've Had Worse) and economy (Career Fair enabling Liberated Accounts; Day Job(?), Lucky Find(?)).

I don't like Anarch with their own breakers either. They fill occasional niches in faction, but ultimately it's very easily shut down and/or takes too long to assemble. Sometimes it will crush. Sometimes you will watch a corp score Astros behind a Wraparound or whatever.


But those were also true before Net Ready Eyes and the best Anarch decks were still based on AI. And power-drawing is one thing but if your Corroders are glued to the bottom of your deck Anarchs currently have no way of prising it out off. And in some games Corroder IS going to be glued to the bottom of your deck.

I don't see NRE as the card Anarchs have been waiting for to unlock the hidden power of Yog.0.
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Re: Dealing with Net-Ready Eye

Postby Brendan » Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:49 pm

Satellite Uplink wrote:But those were also true before Net Ready Eyes and the best Anarch decks were still based on AI.


Yes, because Lotus Field was seeing a lot of play.

I agree that AI breakers are far better in Anarch than hunting for the correct option, but with Inject and I've Had Worse, it's better than it has ever been. Lotus Field really was a big stumbling block to assembling non-AI focused Anarch decks (see MaxX decks running Zu...eugh...).
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Re: Dealing with Net-Ready Eye

Postby maznaz » Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:57 pm

For a long time the anarch breaker suite + datasuckers and occasionally parasites was THE dominant breaker suite in the game by a long way. Lotus field changed that, not AI breakers.
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Re: Dealing with Net-Ready Eye

Postby Brendan » Thu Jun 11, 2015 3:23 pm

Not in Anarch it wasn't, and rarely in Shaper.
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Re: Dealing with Net-Ready Eye

Postby king_mob » Thu Jun 11, 2015 3:40 pm

Disclaimer: iv not been playing nearly long enough to provide a solid opinion on this current discussion, but for my own understanding i want to ask - wasnt the major problem for anarchs not that the infaction breaker suite wasnt ideal, but that lotus field doesn't die to parasite? So NRE presents a better i.e lower cost infaction solution to the one ICE in the game bar architect that the normal anarch tools cant answer?
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Re: Dealing with Net-Ready Eye

Postby pruneface » Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:02 pm

king_mob wrote:Disclaimer: iv not been playing nearly long enough to provide a solid opinion on this current discussion, but for my own understanding i want to ask - wasnt the major problem for anarchs not that the infaction breaker suite wasnt ideal, but that lotus field doesn't die to parasite? So NRE presents a better i.e lower cost infaction solution to the one ICE in the game bar architect that the normal anarch tools cant answer?


I'm not an anarch player, so I'll let someone with more faction experience speak about this but my understanding is that Anarch was weak because everything - money, draw, utility - was OOF, and because they don't have proper tutoring they have an issue finding deckslots and consistently getting the setup they want. I think Wooley was the first to go on record with this, but AI is great in anarch because it saves deckslots and provides a kind of consistency because once you've drawn your AI you can apply pressure.
The onesie was a legitimate tactical decision.
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Re: Dealing with Net-Ready Eye

Postby Satellite Uplink » Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:42 pm

pruneface wrote:
king_mob wrote:Disclaimer: iv not been playing nearly long enough to provide a solid opinion on this current discussion, but for my own understanding i want to ask - wasnt the major problem for anarchs not that the infaction breaker suite wasnt ideal, but that lotus field doesn't die to parasite? So NRE presents a better i.e lower cost infaction solution to the one ICE in the game bar architect that the normal anarch tools cant answer?


I'm not an anarch player, so I'll let someone with more faction experience speak about this but my understanding is that Anarch was weak because everything - money, draw, utility - was OOF, and because they don't have proper tutoring they have an issue finding deckslots and consistently getting the setup they want. I think Wooley was the first to go on record with this, but AI is great in anarch because it saves deckslots and provides a kind of consistency because once you've drawn your AI you can apply pressure.


Basically true. The best thing about the Anarch rig was that you didn't have to be Anarch to play it.

At the moment Anarchs have to spend so much effort building their Anarch rig that there's no space left at the end to really take advantage of the good stuff that made you want to be Anarch in the first place. Other factions can fit in the Anarch rig with less effort and keep their faction toys.

The Anarch card pool is very bad at rigbuilding because they can't reliably find all the pieces. Anarchs work best when they can just pick up and play with whatever they draw, and although Earthrise/Inject/IHW help a lot in terms of how much they get to draw and play with they don't really help in terms of finding specific cards when you need them.

I like the people who talk about including Yog.0 as a 'super Parasite' that kills all code gates under STR 3. I'm not currently convinced that anything has changed in the Anarch cardpool that turns them into rigbuilders.
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Re: Dealing with Net-Ready Eye

Postby Vapo » Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:22 pm

A lot changed for Anarch with the big box. They have at least one runner now who can happily use a full rig - RegAss type MaxX builds (including Tim's prepaid variant as well as Dan D's original) are at least as strong as the Siphon/Eater variants, in fact I'd say they're significantly stronger, I find Siphon MaxX incredibly easy to play around whereas RegAss puts in a good showing against anything but the fastest corp decks. Even before NRE it was a solid option and that card can only have helped it.

The recent strong finishes for Whizzard over in the states seem to be proving that Anarchs can now build a full rig without having the accelerated pace of MaxX, and some Valencia decks have done well with legit breakers too, although having Blackmail for the early game clearly helps you get set up there.

Noise is still not gonna want to spend so many deckslots on things that aren't viruses or ways to pay for/recur viruses, and Reina's ability is so narrow that only a strongly focussed AI plan can make it worthwhile, but I think if you want to play any other Anarch right now you should be looking at Mimic, Yog, Corroder, NRE and D4v1d as your end-game rig, with Parasites to eat up the parts you can't handle yet or take down particularly taxing stuff later on. It's not the most efficient thing in the world, but combined with the brute force of Medium and your now functional economy thanks to the peculiar hiring practices of mega corps it's absolutely playable.
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Re: Dealing with Net-Ready Eye

Postby ApeAsylum » Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:31 am

it's absolutely playable.


That's exactly what i was trying to say but failed lol. You put it much more eloquently :D
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Re: Dealing with Net-Ready Eye

Postby evilgaz » Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:35 am

Timo brought a RegAss MaxX for tests on Wednesday and it was fairly brutal. NRE turns off all the Lotus Fields and other problems and she has no problem recurring breakers that go in the bin. Chuck in a spare AI breaker to plug the gap when you're missing a breaker and she's on mission really quickly.
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Re: Dealing with Net-Ready Eye

Postby Cerberus » Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:40 pm

evilgaz wrote:Timo brought a RegAss MaxX for tests on Wednesday and it was fairly brutal. NRE turns off all the Lotus Fields and other problems and she has no problem recurring breakers that go in the bin. Chuck in a spare AI breaker to plug the gap when you're missing a breaker and she's on mission really quickly.


Tell my number 1 fan to get back to Leela. Traitor! ;)
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Re: Dealing with Net-Ready Eye

Postby evilgaz » Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:59 pm

Some might say he's following winning decks from the new Champ now. Some people. Not me. Other people. ;)
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Re: Dealing with Net-Ready Eye

Postby MasterAir » Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:20 pm

I think playing proper breakers in anarch is a totally reasonable plan. NRE makes Lotus Field (eventually) go away, which is good news. Lotus field was an absolute nightmare, especially in Blue Sun.

I think you need some combination of special order, SMC or knight to get over the corroder on the bottom of the deck issue.

Anarch currently have the BEST draw in the game in Inject, IHW, Wyld Pancakes or some combination thereof. They also have a whole bunch of good AI options. Core set anarch rig is a good starting point, don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Even if you're Shaper or Criminal you only have 1 or 2 more cards that will get you past wraparound than the average (real rig) anarch deck.

I am firmly of the opinion that the core set breakers for anarch should be your endgame (if you need or have time to get there). They're so so efficient when they work. Noise might be an exception, I'm not really sure about Noise and will defer to better Noise players.
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Re: Dealing with Net-Ready Eye

Postby Vinegarymink » Sun Jun 14, 2015 7:37 am

Yeah when do I get a no.1 fan, and will they be as nice as Teemo?
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Re: Dealing with Net-Ready Eye

Postby Cerberus » Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:41 am

Vinegarymink wrote:Yeah when do I get a no.1 fan, and will they be as nice as Teemo?


Careful what you ask for, my no.1 fan beat me with my own decks... ;)

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