Leela Post-mortem

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Cerberus
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Re: Leela Post-mortem

Postby Cerberus » Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:46 pm

Why Shrike?

Why no Femme?
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Re: Leela Post-mortem

Postby GuyCliquil » Thu Jan 07, 2016 1:18 pm

Partly it is just taste. I've never played well with Femme - the 9 credits always feels like a hefty swing against me. Admittedly this was pre Archangel which I hate with a passion so might find that I miss it.

Shrike sits there because I am seeing a lot of Assassins around whatever deck I seem to play against and though its not a cheap solution it is a simple one. It also helps me deal with Data Raven's second subroutine, News Hound against Sol, Ichi's and all kinds of shennaigans permanently. I feel like Mimic/Femme/Faeries might be better on reflection but some of it is taking the pressure off my brain to think about things too much - Fearies down early to facecheck with an option to surprise the credit balance later on if I find one late game, with Shrike as the Sentry solution once I need a permanent solution. If I have to keep the Mimic/Femme/Faerie combo in my head I find that I struggle to deal with all those 4+ strength sentries, certainly as stacking them seems to be quite common at the moment.

That said I've just come out of playing a lot of Adam, where I've found Shrike is the best solution, so it may well be that in Leela those other options are better. What would you say will be my biggest drawback plaing Shrike? Will it be that I tax myself out against Architects or any other low strength sentries people pop in my way?

That said the "waltz" name is yours and if this deck is just too disgusting I'll change it - I don't want to get sued for ruining the brand! :P #lawyerup
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Re: Leela Post-mortem

Postby ronharristwo » Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:47 pm

Waltz

Leela Patel: Trained Pragmatist (All That Remains)

Event (15)
3x Account Siphon (Core Set)
3x Dirty Laundry (Creation and Control)
2x Inside Job (Core Set)
1x Legwork (Honor and Profit)
3x Special Order (Core Set)
3x Sure Gamble (Core Set)

Hardware (7)
3x Desperado (Core Set) ☆☆☆
1x Plascrete Carapace (What Lies Ahead)
3x R&D Interface (Future Proof) ••••• •

Resource (12)
2x Bank Job (Core Set)
3x Daily Casts (Creation and Control)
2x Drug Dealer (Old Hollywood)
3x Kati Jones (Humanity's Shadow)
2x Security Testing (Honor and Profit)

Icebreaker (9)
1x Breach (Honor and Profit)
1x Corroder (Core Set) ••
3x Faerie (Future Proof)
1x Femme Fatale (Core Set)
1x Gordian Blade (Core Set) •••
1x Mimic (Core Set)
1x Passport (Honor and Profit)

Program (2)
2x Sneakdoor Beta (Core Set)

12 influence spent (max 15-3=12)
45 cards (min 45)


While I liked Express Delivery in testing, I wanted to conform more to your ideas in terms of how this deck operates or even what you would test. Atman is out for Gordian. The only thing I really don't like is running 2 sneak doors, but without a tutor or way to shift thru the deck I feel like you need 2 to see it if/when you need it. I would replace it with Legwork if I could. Test game after test game the Drug Dealers feel good, I even find myself spending out in early turns and pooling credits on Kati (I like having 3 Kati's now alot running Drug Dealer). Drug Dealer firing before Daily Casts works well when I'm doing that. I do know that I dislike Sym. Visage almost as much as I do Peacock, if Drug Dealer/Jon isn't the answer I'm not sure what is.

What do you think, what have you seen in your testing?
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Re: Leela Post-mortem

Postby Cerberus » Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:42 pm

I've not done any serious testing recently, however, explain to me why blade is so much better than Peacock?
Obviously it is great against stacked Code Gates.

The cost to break common code gates is actually very similar. I wonder if it is close enough to be worth 3 influence.

Why do you dislike it so much?
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Re: Leela Post-mortem

Postby ronharristwo » Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:22 pm

Cerberus wrote:I've not done any serious testing recently, however, explain to me why blade is so much better than Peacock?
Obviously it is great against stacked Code Gates.

The cost to break common code gates is actually very similar. I wonder if it is close enough to be worth 3 influence.

Why do you dislike it so much?


I dislike it's efficiency when having to break any code gate that has multiple routines and/or the need for a strength buff. 4c to 6c on a run feels prohibitive. Toolbooth is 3g to see it, 2g to pump, 2g to break, that feels bad. I really haven't tested it enough, and I guess if I look at Gordian I'm not getting that much more of a discount. What I am realizing is that attacking remote servers will be taxing, and passport will keep my efficiency for the centrals. I prolly should test the card before I continue to bag on it, I might just dislike the name. I will get over it. Now, if not Gordian Blade or Atmon, what should we do with the 3 influence? I run 45 cards, I see you run 46, so we technically have a "slot". Legwork/Carapice, drop Breach and re-add the 2 Corrorder?

I have 14 versions of this deck on Jenteki right now, it's silly really. This is the only runner deck I play or care about playing however, so figuring out this list is very important to me coming into my first Store Champions run.
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Re: Leela Post-mortem

Postby Cerberus » Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:32 pm

It's interesting how much everyone hates on Peacock, splash for Blade and then go, look at this run on Tollbooth, it's... Oh, exactly the same cost!
A lot of ice is the same, or 1 more cost. It's actually Enigma on a remote that is the most taxing if you need to run it more than once. Weirdly not as bad as you'd think, worth the one card when you also have Inside Job and Femme etc as support.

Also, really honoured you love the deck this much. Thanks :)

Post MWL, I think you may not need Atman, and so I'd be tempted to play Corroder number 2 and a Stimhack. Maybe add a SOT if we can fit it in :)

Stimhack is so good...
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Re: Leela Post-mortem

Postby Brendan » Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:42 pm

Agreed entirely on Peacock. But I have found that's not so much that Gordian is good and Peacock almost as good - it's that both are pretty terrible against things like Tollbooth or Turing. But I'm fully on board with the the main point - low-str and/or multi-sub code gates, or stacked big gates, are the only ones Gordian deals any better with, and Crim has other options for that. The Blade is not worth 3 influence.
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Re: Leela Post-mortem

Postby Cerberus » Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:51 pm

Brendan wrote:Agreed entirely on Peacock. But I have found that's not so much that Gordian is good and Peacock almost as good - it's that both are pretty terrible against things like Tollbooth or Turing. But I'm fully on board with the the main point - low-str and/or multi-sub code gates, or stacked big gates, are the only ones Gordian deals any better with, and Crim has other options for that. The Blade is not worth 3 influence.


Having access to David is what criminal need IMO
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Re: Leela Post-mortem

Postby Brendan » Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:04 pm

Totally, which is why I've almost given up on the 'real breakers' route for a lot of Crim play. On the other hand, sometimes that Geist deck feels like it's entirely filled with D4v1d counters - there's too much of a good thing.

I do wonder if we'll see something tasty in Mumbad. Crims have had a long time without a sensible breaker. (Mongoose and B&E are not sensible; even if functional in some decks they do not count or work for classic Crim rigs).
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Re: Leela Post-mortem

Postby ronharristwo » Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:29 pm

Cerberus wrote:It's interesting how much everyone hates on Peacock, splash for Blade and then go, look at this run on Tollbooth, it's... Oh, exactly the same cost!
A lot of ice is the same, or 1 more cost. It's actually Enigma on a remote that is the most taxing if you need to run it more than once. Weirdly not as bad as you'd think, worth the one card when you also have Inside Job and Femme etc as support.

Also, really honoured you love the deck this much. Thanks :)

Post MWL, I think you may not need Atman, and so I'd be tempted to play Corroder number 2 and a Stimhack. Maybe add a SOT if we can fit it in :)

Stimhack is so good...


Alittle background on me, I have only been playing the game about 2 months. I played MtG competitively before this, I play Hearthstone (since Jinteki, I barely play it) and live poker (online is bullshit). Since finding out about the game, I have devoted my time to understanding the meta, and cards within it. I play at least 15 games of Jinteki a day between work and home. I watched most of the streamed matches available online. Seeing your showing in the 2015 Worlds plus reading articles/watching interviews with you I have decided that I want to devote myself to playing Criminal. I am honored to get to talk theory with you about this, as I consider you the foremost authority on Criminal play in the game today.

Stimhack is a great choice. Late game the breaker suite is up, you shell out the money on Femme and you might not have the credits you need. Drug Dealer is anti economy (thou any time Desperado is on the board you really don't feel it), paying to bang that scoring server getting to that half-scored Global Food can be prohibitive later in the game. Stimhack handles this problem better than Inside Job ever could. This is good in both the Foodcoats, and RP matchup which I feel Waltz has the most trouble with.

Same Old Thing would be a great thing to tech in too and could be in that slot as well. If we tried to tech it in with Stimhack, I don't know what we could take out. I don't want to attack any more of the economy cards, and I feel strongly about Bank Jobs place in the deck (I expect so much yellow in this years Store Champs). Same Old Thing would make playing the one Legwork/Stimhack abd Siphon more effective. Siphon almost needs some recycle to be as effective as you would like it to be with the state of corp economy in our bad matchups. Brings me back to wanting to pull a Sneakdoor. I don't think we could risk dropping the Carapace, I still expect to see some nerfed Harps running around, along with some people giving Blue Sun a go. Cut a Faerie maybe?
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Re: Leela Post-mortem

Postby Cerberus » Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:06 pm

This is my gut feel to keep everything we've discussed.

Endless Waltz v11

Leela Patel: Trained Pragmatist

Event (16)
3x Account Siphon
3x Dirty Laundry
2x Inside Job
1x Legwork
3x Special Order
1x Stimhack •
3x Sure Gamble

Hardware (7)
3x Desperado ☆☆☆
1x Plascrete Carapace
3x R&D Interface ••••• •

Resource (12)
2x Bank Job
3x Daily Casts
2x Drug Dealer
2x Kati Jones
1x Same Old Thing
2x Security Testing

Icebreaker (9)
2x Corroder ••••
3x Faerie
1x Femme Fatale
1x Mimic •
1x Passport
1x Peacock

Program (2)
2x Sneakdoor Beta

12 influence spent (max 15-3=12)
46 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Old Hollywood

Deck built on http://netrunnerdb.com.
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Re: Leela Post-mortem

Postby Cerberus » Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:08 pm

Also, you've definitely gone hard mode playing criminal. They're not strong right now. I'm just awkward and love them a lot.

Hopefully see you at a store championship?
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Re: Leela Post-mortem

Postby ronharristwo » Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:32 pm

Cerberus wrote:Also, you've definitely gone hard mode playing criminal. They're not strong right now. I'm just awkward and love them a lot.

Hopefully see you at a store championship?


I prefer hard mode. I feel like good play and dedication to it can overcome some of the shortcoming of it's card pool. Currently, it is the only faction of runner deck I play so I feel like devotion to it will pay off (FFA will eventually over compensate). I also perceive the Anarch card pool to be "easy mode" and most Shaper decks seem to play like a game of solitaire.

I live in Michigan, USA so that might not see you for Store Champs. I am hopeful we could see each other at Worlds someday :). I came to this forum hoping I could get in contact with you specifically so I could be involved in playtesting and theory crafting for this deck.

Cutting the Kati seems like the slot we got, but I would like to test it. I have been liking seeing Kati frequently so I can build up credits on her while I try to spend myself out to avoid Drug Dealer hits in the early game. Archangel access thru R&D/face check runs have taught me afew lessons about pressing my luck with stacking Kati credits thou, I have to be careful. I think it will be alright, I really like SOT and Stimhack.
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Re: Leela Post-mortem

Postby ronharristwo » Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:37 pm

Testing today has went alittle rough, some thoughts.


Econ:
Daily Casts is underwhelming sometimes if it is my only source of income, but being click-less I don't think we can do much better.

Dirty Laundry feels so-so sometimes, but I understand it's efficient.

Bank Job has it's weaknesses again Foodcoats, and Blue Sun. Even if you spend 2-3c getting in thru however it still has some nice value, so it's far from bad.

Kati Jones is still baller thou. I feel like without her I can't win against glacier matchups, and her "storing" credits works great when I have Drug Dealer goin in the early game.

Account Siphon is dead in my hand alot more than I would like. I understand it's strength, but I am not landing it in the early game all that often (HQ Ice start is frequent, even if they only have 1 ice, I get way more R&D accesses because people are playing around it). Mid game with a breaker/Leela ablity I can punch through, but I usually have resources I don't want trashed so it kills tempo clearing the tags. Late game it feels like a bad Bankjob that costs tempo. The state of corp economy right now in our bad matchups (Foodcoats/Blue Sun) has me not liking this deck slot, but I know it's considered Criminal Blasphemy to not run it.

Desperado. I still love you big dog, even with that influence tacted on.

2 copies of Security Testing is the perfect number.

I felt the sting of Drug Dealer in one of my sessions today. Blue Sun had barriers on every door and I couldn't make runs to feed it with security testing or my Desperado. However, I do find the flow of cards helping me keep the pressure up in most other matchups, so I am not gonna let a bad game or two sour me on it's overall strength. I also can't stand the alternatives in the current meta. Sym. Visage is very underwhelming, and when drawn late instead of early feels useless. John Massnori costs tempo every tag you take, and doesn't feel consistent going into the mid/late stages when I need those cards to keep my tempo/pressure. Could other card drawing be considered? Quality time is abit expensive (Could go back to 1 Corroder and add breach for influence), Fisk feels bad in early stages, and could straight up hand the corp the answers they need for nothing in wost case scenarios.


Tech:

I would love to destroy/bypass more ice to keep pressure, however Emergency Shutdown and Forced Activation Orders suck in the current state of Corp econ. This always leads me to looking into card splashing, and always saddens me when I realize I spend most of my influence carrying breakers because the faction lacks any quality in that regard and needing RDI. The Turning Wheel could be the answer in the new set, so we could add a D4vid.

Like you said, hard mode. :)
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Re: Leela Post-mortem

Postby GuyCliquil » Sun Jan 10, 2016 6:47 pm

Leela's still got game!

Didn't drop a game at Milton Keynes GNK - even with my Quest Completed Nonsense (used it to steal a 15 minutes)
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Re: Leela Post-mortem

Postby Andy G » Tue Jan 12, 2016 1:54 pm

Hi all,

Looking at the posts above, it starting to look like most Criminal Decks that aren't Iain or Giest are merging into one list,
for example here is my current Andi list that I have been slowly tinkering with.
Do people think that this is due to the amount of good criminal cards or we are stuck in a ruck?

Andromeda: Dispossessed Ristie (Humanity's Shadow)

Event (13)
3x Account Siphon (Core Set)
2x Inside Job (Core Set)
2x Special Order (Core Set)
3x Sure Gamble (Core Set)
1x Hostage (Opening Moves)
2x Legwork (Honor and Profit)

Hardware (6)
2x Desperado (Core Set)
2x Plascrete Carapace (What Lies Ahead)
2x R&D Interface (Future Proof) ••••

Resource (15)
3x Bank Job (Core Set)
2x Kati Jones (Humanity's Shadow)
3x Same Old Thing (Creation and Control)
3x Security Testing (Honor and Profit)
3x Drug Dealer (Old Hollywood)
1x Jak Sinclair (Data and Destiny) ••

Icebreaker (8)
2x Corroder (Core Set) ••••
1x Mimic (Core Set) •
1x Femme Fatale (Core Set)
1x Peacock (What Lies Ahead)
3x Faerie (Future Proof)

Program (3)
2x Datasucker (Core Set) ••
1x Sneakdoor Beta (Core Set)

13 influence spent (maximum 15)
45 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Data and Destiny

Regarding this list, I'm thinking that the next things to test are removing the 2 Datasuckers or Jak and the hostage to fit in a third Desperado and an Employee Strike, what do you think.

Andy
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Re: Leela Post-mortem

Postby Brendan » Tue Jan 12, 2016 2:15 pm

Andy G wrote:Do people think that this is due to the amount of good criminal cards or we are stuck in a ruck?


It's not so much good Criminal cards as what you can do with the influence (it has to be R&D Interface, 1-2 Corroder, 3 Desperado - which doesn't leave much left) and what ice corps are playing. Once you add Mimic and realise you need to punch through big code-gates, all that's left is Peacock. Then you need a truck load of money cards because those breakers are expensive to use, so you put those in. Finish with the good Criminal events and you're done.
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Re: Leela Post-mortem

Postby GuyCliquil » Tue Jan 12, 2016 2:50 pm

Looking at the posts above, it starting to look like most Criminal Decks that aren't Iain or Giest are merging into one list,


I think a lot of Criminal thought processes are about how to deal with the inefficiencies of breakers. To some extent it is just a standard version of the runner's dilemma just dialed up to 11; do you just try and go so fast and disruptive that you don't have to deal with decent defenses (either because they can't be rezzed or because you are attacking so many places at once) or do you just make your runs so effective that you can afford the expense.

I'd say that some key cards imply one direction over another - no longer term Sentry breaker (my opinion on this is hotly debatable and I'll accept that) Drug Dealer & Jack Sinclair in that list implies to me that you're more on the former than the latter, just like a lot the Gabe/Ken lists out there.

There are some latter stage playings of some Leela list (far as I can tell, and how I've had to play the Waltz is that its a weird hybrid of the two ideas)r, and Stealth Andy, that takes the second approach.

I think you're right in that a lot of these lists have a lot of similarities just because there are stand out effective cards. Long term econ always has to be Kati - Shapers can Mopus and up til recently they could ppvp, Anarchs might decide to take the Liberated route for their big cash swings, skipping Account Siphon just seems like an odd call, R&D Interface beats Maker's Eye, Legwork beats HQ Interface, Inside Job is always good in a pinch, Special Order is the only finder...

And so and so forth. I feel like a lot of cards that have been printed for Criminals have been, for the most part, ineffective alternatives to what options they already had.

I have built a reasonable list without Siphon trying to find an alternate Criminal route but it was, at best, OK.
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Re: Leela Post-mortem

Postby Brendan » Tue Jan 12, 2016 2:55 pm

GuyCliquil wrote:I have built a reasonable list without Siphon trying to find an alternate Criminal route but it was, at best, OK.


Like it or not, Account Siphon is a defining card from the Criminal core set, and it probably always will be. Playing without it is probably a mistake, as the card is so powerful (as we saw last night, when I had to fight my way back from your crazy econ start as RP...).
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Re: Leela Post-mortem

Postby GuyCliquil » Tue Jan 12, 2016 2:57 pm

Completely correct. My list tried to capitilise on attacking HQ rarely and just bounced around remotes and camped as much as possible. It was interesting, but ultimately would have easily benefited from Siphon without a shadow of a doubt.

And yes - Siphon spam even works against big ass money piles.
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Re: Leela Post-mortem

Postby Brendan » Tue Jan 12, 2016 3:22 pm

I did like how you planned to stall the game out until I ran out of cards. It almost worked too!
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Re: Leela Post-mortem

Postby GuyCliquil » Tue Jan 12, 2016 3:39 pm

Yes. It was brilliant and I'd thought through absolutely everything.

Until I ran out of cards. :lol:
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Re: Leela Post-mortem

Postby Andy G » Wed Jan 13, 2016 1:35 pm

Brendan and Guy, thanks for the responses and I think you are right it is a mixture of good cards and finding the best mest efficient stuff from the rest of the factions.

Guy you are right my Andi deck is going for the live fast run hard approach. After playing a lot of durdly decks for a while I wanted a change.

Andy
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Re: Leela Post-mortem

Postby ronharristwo » Wed Jan 13, 2016 6:57 pm

Dave, what about Lawyer up instead of Drug Dealer? It's not great on the tempo front, but it fills the need for card drawing with the drawback, and even clears tags to boot. I dunno.
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Re: Leela Post-mortem

Postby GuyCliquil » Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:10 pm

I know this is more of a question for Dave, and quite rightly so, but my 2 cents would be (I tried to use Lawyer Up in a different Crim deck a while back) that it ias very awkward. In an ideal world Siphon followed by Lawyer Up is great but

A - It is very draw dependent, moreso than many combos out there
B - The choice to Siphon or not to Siphon should never depend on the second card
C - The draw isn't actually crazy efficient
D - Draw cards are at their best when you can let them take you over your hand size to then install but with Lawyer Up you want to use it leaving you with, at best, 1 click.

That said, I will not exactly argue the toss if wiser heads have had better luck.
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