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The Eliphant in the Room

Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 11:05 am
by Chimpster
Site Article: http://netrunners.co.uk/articles/The%20 ... 0Room.html

Here I have a good old fashioned rant about a corp card I consider vastly overpowered! And it's not Astroscript!

How do you deal with Eli?

Which cards frustrate you the most folks?

Re: The Eliphant in the Room

Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 11:34 am
by Brendan
Eli probably should have been 4 to rez (compare to Bastion- the extra subroutine surely makes up for the clicking ability?). It certainly finds its way into most decks.

I'm looking forward to the day Morningstar becomes a viable breaker. It's just so hard to use in Anarch right now - even with Retrieval Run...

Re: The Eliphant in the Room

Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 11:54 am
by Vapo
I agree with virtually everything you said, it's certainly one of the most overpowered Corp cards, but there's one point I have to address (you probably know what's coming)

RP without Eli's is just sheer folly.


I know I've banged on about this before, but I feel the need to keep repeating myself because it's such a common thing to hear. This idea that Eli is a must-have in RP is just not true. I admit ELP helped a bit (tho it's not a reliable combo) but like any flat ETR Eli is always risky in RP. Put it on a central and you've just opened up free access to your remotes, which is *such* a waste of your ID, and it's not reliable enough for your scoring remote either which makes it incredibly narrow. If you get a perfect opening with other ice to put on all 3 centrals, and a couple for a scoring remote, and a sundew, then yeah it's great for protecting that sundew, but if you don't get that start you're having to put ice in places it doesn't really belong and hampering yourself for the rest of the game. I'll keep spending my influence on stuff that is less likely to backfire. I don't think a deck which is undefeated in 2 tournaments now should really be called a Folly!

The last time I played against your RP is a great example - the first 3 ice you rezzed were Eli, and I won without ever installing a barrier breaker! Can't get on youtube at work to check but I'm pretty sure I bounced off them several times to hit your remotes, and I know I clicked through it at least once to get an agenda.

It is an AMAZING piece of ice in FA decks that need cheap taxing ice, I can't imagine playing NEH without splashing for 2-3 and obviously it's an auto-include in virtually all HB decks, but in RP where you have the cash to rez big guns and you also have the insanely good Pup and Yagura for cheap taxing (over archives/sundews/even R&D early game) there are better ways to spend your influence, and in fact even with spare influence I don't think I'd go back to Eli. Maybe in place of the Quandaries which I use for early game sundew/melange protection, but probably not - I'd rather make them burn a parasite/dig for a code gate breaker than spend 2 clicks. I'm actually contemplating a version only spending 13 influence right now because I'm genuinely struggling to find a way to spend the last 2 that doesn't make the deck weaker in some way.

Legwork is the card I find most frustrating, but that's just because I've always had horrid luck with it! San San is one that doesn't get quite the hate it deserves I've always thought - the trash cost is ridiculous, and fast advance cards that can be used multiple times just should not exist. I guess it seems overshadowed by Astro...

Re: The Eliphant in the Room

Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:03 pm
by MasterAir
...Or Strength 3.

Eli is really good! Though now all 4 corp factions have 1 inf cards that you think hard about playing in every deck. Eli, Jackson, Crisium Grid and Lotus Field. Of these Jinteki's is the weakest, but not by much. It certainly makes you feel less bad about only paying 1 influence for Datasucker. Eli is less good in a world with less fast advance - you don't want Eli to protect your remotes (unless you're RP - but that's cheating anyway :-) ) - I think if you solve the astroscript problem you might go some way to circumventing the Eli problem.

Morning Star is the answer to Eli for red decks. I think if you're not playing Crypsis only Noise, you've got to bring 1 to the party at the moment. As indicated in the article Eli is universal and you win 3c per break over Corroder. You've broken even the second time you break Eli. The only problem is that in the next pack you also need an answer to Curtain Wall and Hadrian's Wall.

Atman is really good.

Criminal have the biggest problems breaking Eli. But Criminal have the biggest problem with breaking ICE in general, and they seem to do alright. Eli doesn't help much vs Siphon.

... Rachel Beckman gets you an extra click...........

Viper looks superficially pretty similar to Eli. Why isn't it played more?

Re: The Eliphant in the Room

Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:15 pm
by evilgaz
Eli is a twat, there's no doubt. 3-rez cost for Str 4 and two subroutines? Stick two of them on a central and its really costly to get through (hello Foundry). Only 1pt splash as well?

I don't find him as irritating as SanSan (too high trash cost) in the same faction as Astro, but he's easily spashable there.

When I've used him the problems I've normally seen are Str 4 Atman related (Viper, Ichi 1.0, Lotus Field and a host of other ICE suddenly become very porous) and with datasucker in the mix...

Also as early defence he's weak against someone willing to click to score the Account Siphon.

Largely I've been playing Noise (although I'm hipster and trying to change it up since loads of mainstreamers are on it after cache came out :D ), so Parasite/Datasucker has been the answer. He's not easy to kill with the high strength, but generally so painful its worth the effort.

In other news Biotic Labour is one of the cards that depresses me. I really liked HB from the start, but the focus on a fast advance strategy has often left me cold on the faction.

Account Siphon is just a funker. Indexing often seems rough, but it fairly well balanced, AS just seems that little bit too good on balance.

Desperado should arguably cost a bit more.

On the whole, its the Fast Advance stuff that I think peeves me about the game. A lot of tournament games I've had against HB Ending The Fun and various NBN all came down to luck of the draw and who'll see the agendas first? Did the ice breakers come out in the right order for the ice?

Most other decks have strategy and good or bad match ups but FA takes a lot of fun and skill out of Netrunner and turns it more into a lottery of which cards come up first - not completely that way, but more so than I like.

Re: The Eliphant in the Room

Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:24 pm
by Brendan
I think you need fast advance to be viable, if not good, for the metagame. If everyone were just scoring the old fashioned way, we'd see nothing but big-rig runners ready to pounce on advanced cards. Fast advance is the only thing that keeps glacier good - a shaper with Magnum Opus and pumpable breakers can handily beat RP by just sitting back and building. But they'll also stand no chance against fast advance.

Re: The Eliphant in the Room

Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:54 pm
by pruneface
It's really suprising how little we talk about the power level of Eli 1.0, when it's clear that it's an amazing card. Article was spot on.
Thankfully, we have the best answer to Eli coming up this cycle: http://www.netrunnerdb.com/it/card/06099. Break Eli for 1! (well, 2, if you factor in the install cost). When we get Uninstall, dog breakers are going to be big, I tells ya.
Stronger Anarch tools (which I'm hoping we get out of the big box) will make Quetzal more viable, which also makes Eli that much weaker.

Re: The Eliphant in the Room

Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:00 pm
by stylewars
Best answer to Eli 1.0 is E3 Implants - breaks Eli for a click and credit. E3s complement my knight, david and overmind so I am more likely to be packing them these days.

Re: The Eliphant in the Room

Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:03 pm
by MasterAir
Exile and the Dumpster Dogs - A deck coming to you this Winter. (It'll be better in Kate)

Re: The Eliphant in the Room

Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:13 pm
by Sixtyten
it's always better in Kate...

Re: The Eliphant in the Room

Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:43 pm
by pruneface
Now I have this vision of Exile applying for various coding / hacking jobs only to be turned down time and time again for our Core Set Wonder.

EXILE: "You...you hired Mac, didn't you."
SUIT: "Yeah. She's just...better, y'know?"
EXILE: "I know."

*Exile curls up inside dumpster; cries himself to sleep*

Re: The Eliphant in the Room

Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 9:13 am
by leigen_zero
Y'know what, every time I go via the front page to get to the forum, I look at the title and I think 'There's something wrong with the way elephant is spelled, but I can't put my finger on it'

(Bear in mind that I read the article when it went up last week)

And finally this morning I realised the deliberate eliphant spelling. Talk about late to the party :roll:

Probably explains why my win-loss ratio is so bad :lol: