Pre-Nationals Corp Meta Analysis

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Chimpster
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Pre-Nationals Corp Meta Analysis

Postby Chimpster » Sat May 16, 2015 6:45 pm

Site Article: http://netrunners.co.uk/articles/pre-na ... lysis.html

2014 National Champion Dave Hoyland has kindly taken us through what you can look to expect in the forthcoming UK National tournament. Currently as I speak he is in the midst of a top8 cut in the Sheffield Regional where it is certainly looking like these predictions have come to fruition, but who knows what it'll look like in a fortnight? Let us know what you think on the forums!
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Re: Pre-Nationals Corp Meta Analysis

Postby Mezzamine » Sat May 16, 2015 10:28 pm

Great article Dave :)

I've been playing Government Takeover Blue Sun for a little while now, and I really think it's one of the strongest decks out right now. It's also one of the most draining to play against when they get the upper hand - much like RP, except instead of feeling hopelessly locked out from everywhere you're terrified of doing anything for fear of being visited by the nice men with guns and C4. The only real weaknesses are Noise (of course), and decks with insane non-burst economy - Stimshop with Magnum Opus (which led to the new signature quote after an epic struggle against Rob/Mendax) and Drip Econ Andy are the two toughest matchups I've faced. I imagine Sterling would be interesting too.

It also seems that there are a few variations running about, particularly with regards to use of influence - particularly Tollbooths, Snares and Overwriters in some number, depending on whether you want focus on taxation, centrals protection, or runner bait. Personally, my favourite splash that I haven't seen elsewhere is Targeted Marketing - it lets you dictate the flow of the game when played right, can often help you with the economy war that this deck relies on (name PrePaid against Kate and watch them cry), and currents are ideal for this deck thanks to the extremely low agenda count. And you can always name Plascrete if in doubt.

The other two tech cards I've been using are Snatch and Grab (or 'I would like your Kati Jones to go away forever thank you') and Capital Investors, which I'm honestly amazed hasn't seen more use - it either forces a run or makes a boatload of money, either way ensuring the economy advantage. It does mean I can't find the space for Research Station though, which bugs me. It might actually be worth considering adding in one more HRI going to 59 cards...
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Re: Pre-Nationals Corp Meta Analysis

Postby Joey » Sat May 16, 2015 10:44 pm

Kate, Leela, Andy........ MaxX (or another anarch, Val/Noise)
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Re: Pre-Nationals Corp Meta Analysis

Postby Nemamiah » Sun May 17, 2015 7:22 am

I think Noise, Maxx, Reina and Valencia all merit consideration at the moment.

I agree with Dave's analysis, but if it's accurate went are so few people playing RP? There was only one in the top 8 at Oxford, and only one in Sheffield (granted, he won).

Grail or no grail is also the other question that warrants answering, I think.
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Re: Pre-Nationals Corp Meta Analysis

Postby Cerberus » Sun May 17, 2015 7:38 am

Just on your last point... Grail or No Grail...
In my opinion this is not a question any more for me. Having played Grail RP at 2 Regionals it is NOT tier 1. Its not bad, just not great, normal RP is better.
I almost made the switch to Blue Sun or normal RP but didnt because of lack of testing.

RP went 3-3 in swiss, 3-1 in the cut.
Leela went 6-0 in swiss, 3-0 in the cut

Says everything...
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Re: Pre-Nationals Corp Meta Analysis

Postby MasterAir » Sun May 17, 2015 8:09 am

Nemamiah wrote:I think Noise, Maxx, Reina and Valencia all merit consideration at the moment.

I agree with Dave's analysis, but if it's accurate went are so few people playing RP? There was only one in the top 8 at Oxford, and only one in Sheffield (granted, he won).

Grail or no grail is also the other question that warrants answering, I think.


I think people are fed up with playing psi games for all the marbles. Well matched games vs RP seem dominated by game determining psi. I'm well aware that perception bias amplifies this, but my feeling is this is what puts people off. That and anarchy really upsets RP, all flavours thereof.
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Re: Pre-Nationals Corp Meta Analysis

Postby Nemamiah » Sun May 17, 2015 8:43 am

Agreed. A lot of RP games come down to a Psi game on a one off access of a Future Perfect, or a Caprice run protecting the first Nisei. That may well be holding people back.

I also agree that I wouldn't play grail out of RP. I think it's still good out of NEH because it forces Shapers to use their SMC, clearing the way for your fast advance.
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Re: Pre-Nationals Corp Meta Analysis

Postby Cerberus » Sun May 17, 2015 9:46 am

Nemamiah wrote:Agreed. A lot of RP games come down to a Psi game on a one off access of a Future Perfect, or a Caprice run protecting the first Nisei. That may well be holding people back.

I also agree that I wouldn't play grail out of RP. I think it's still good out of NEH because it forces Shapers to use their SMC, clearing the way for your fast advance.


I tried your Grail NEH that you rocked in Oxford and found the econ really tight.

Corp is hard currently...
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Re: Pre-Nationals Corp Meta Analysis

Postby Nemamiah » Sun May 17, 2015 9:49 am

A lot of the econ is really reactive, in that it depends on how aggressive people are about running through your Pop Ups. It is properly tight, though my version is a tad less econ hungry than some variants. NEHs big big problem is deck slots though, you have to pinch either ice, econ or utility.
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Re: Pre-Nationals Corp Meta Analysis

Postby David Whittaker » Sun May 17, 2015 10:27 am

Thanks for the article, Dave. Looks like I'm going to have to stop faking the Clot Slot ;)

With NEXT Gold out I've been trying out your Blood Angel shell (added a Troubleshooter for the NEXT GOLD blowout).

Blood Angel ETF

Haas-Bioroid: Engineering the Future

Agenda (8)
1x Accelerated Beta Test
1x Hades Fragment
3x Priority Requisition
3x Project Vitruvius

Asset (8)
2x Eve Campaign
3x Jackson Howard •••
3x Melange Mining Corp.

Upgrade (3)
2x Ash 2X3ZB9CY
1x Corporate Troubleshooter

Operation (13)
2x Archived Memories
3x Hedge Fund
3x Punitive Counterstrike ••••• •
3x Restructure
2x Successful Demonstration

Barrier (6)
3x Eli 1.0
3x NEXT Silver

Code Gate (6)
3x NEXT Bronze
3x Tollbooth ••••• •

Sentry (4)
2x Architect
2x NEXT Gold

Other (1)
1x Mother Goddess

It's probably not better than Selverin's Glacier deck. But I seem to suck at Psi games recently ;)
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Re: Pre-Nationals Corp Meta Analysis

Postby Cerberus » Sun May 17, 2015 10:36 am

I've been thinking about revisiting this deck but was worried about IHW. How's it been doing for you?
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Re: Pre-Nationals Corp Meta Analysis

Postby Brendan » Sun May 17, 2015 10:44 am

There's a Oxford Regionals HB punitive list you should probably look at too.
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Re: Pre-Nationals Corp Meta Analysis

Postby Vinegarymink » Sun May 17, 2015 11:10 am

Cerberus wrote:I've been thinking about revisiting this deck but was worried about IHW. How's it been doing for you?


I played Punitive HB for a while but I abandoned it recently. It's a lot less common for Runners to be built to steal agendas by the skin of their teeth, making the Punitives a wasted slot. The Inf and card slots are better used at making you a more effective Glacier deck than a less powerful one with a backup plan. IHW is also an issue.
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Re: Pre-Nationals Corp Meta Analysis

Postby mendax » Sun May 17, 2015 11:38 am

IHW is only an issue if the runner guesses/sees punitives before they play them, which is not always common.

Fwiw, my biggest issue with this deck is time limits rather than power, although admittedly I'm playing a 7 agenda version.
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Re: Pre-Nationals Corp Meta Analysis

Postby David Whittaker » Sun May 17, 2015 11:44 am

I'd argue Punitive is actually pretty effective at killing an Anarch running I've Had Worse over Plascrete. You have the chance of missing it in the first place and killing with the second - but because a lot of Anarch builds I've been seeing aren't running Plascrete at all (relying on keeping 5 cards + 1 IHW) I would risk dumping 5-6 points into Archives and kill them that way for when they Dirty Laundry or try to force you to pop Jackson.

If they don't know what you're up to, we also get to watch them burn through their IHW's too, especially if you show them a Tollbooth or two to show influence.

I've only had a couple of flatlines with it so far though, won more games with the glacier game plan but as a plan b I still like this! On the flip side I've only won a GNK with this, not tried it out in a more competitive setting. I am tempted to take it to Nationals though. I'm aware the Troubleshooter looks cute but it really closes out games!
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Re: Pre-Nationals Corp Meta Analysis

Postby Brendan » Sun May 17, 2015 11:49 am

The big problem for glaciers is that it's very hard to pressure the runner any more. Even Adonis gets ignored unless it's all but naked. So the runner sits back rig building, forcing you to massively overdefend your remote, and then R&D multi access ends your game. That's assuming you survive the shaky early game all glaciers suffer from.

I don't think it's possible to glacier without Caprice right now, as she's the only way you can stop the runner getting into your remote without compromising everywhere else.
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Re: Pre-Nationals Corp Meta Analysis

Postby Vinegarymink » Sun May 17, 2015 11:52 am

Yeah I think Caprice is a much better use of Inf than Punitive
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Re: Pre-Nationals Corp Meta Analysis

Postby Kesterer » Sun May 17, 2015 12:43 pm

++ to what Brendan said.

My experience echoes that HB glacier is decent only because of Caprice right now: if I draw her, I'm in a good position; if I don't, I lose. Smart runners will make few but quality runs, so it's impossible to tax them out without her. Ash is only barely worth the slot against PPVP Kate - he's often just a 6 cred tax in those games. Still good against Anarch though.

I'm also coming to the conclusion that NEXT Gold is junk. No one is coming without a solution for it (Atman at 4, Mimic/Sucker, Sharpshooter, Faerie or David if troubleshot), so it's almost never worth the 8 rez cost. It's OK to Pri Req it, but that's about it. Certainly not worth running as more than a 1x.

Agg Sec has actually been a much bigger deal for me in producing wipeouts and straight up won me two games at Oxford.
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Re: Pre-Nationals Corp Meta Analysis

Postby Brendan » Sun May 17, 2015 12:47 pm

The fewer runs being made, the higher impact traps will have - they're not trashing them from R&D or HQ as much.
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Re: Pre-Nationals Corp Meta Analysis

Postby David Whittaker » Sun May 17, 2015 2:03 pm

You just don't rez NEXT Gold against ppvp Kate (purely because of Sharpshooter) unless the pilot makes a grave error of course! Otherwise you should have the economic advantage through Melange to get them (with Troubleshooter) providing D4V1d isn't around.

Selverin's version also runs Cyberdex Virus Suite which can nuke a runner that thinks they're safe with Mimic+Sucker token.

Glacier decks need to make more use of Melange I think, provides enough advantage to force the runner into dealing with it and in this particular deck enables the Punitive kill quite well.

I agree Caprice is likely a better option but as soon as this deck finds double Punitive or Punitive + Archived it always feels like the game is in the bag. I like that feeling far too much to give it up ;)
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Re: Pre-Nationals Corp Meta Analysis

Postby mendax » Sun May 17, 2015 10:57 pm

I tend to find that glaciers with caprice have time issues in tournament play, and that HB is even more susceptible to this than RP.
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Re: Pre-Nationals Corp Meta Analysis

Postby Nemamiah » Mon May 18, 2015 5:52 am

Brendan wrote:There's a Oxford Regionals HB punitive list you should probably look at too.


Will's punitive ETF went 7-0 at Oxford.

I actually agree with all the theory that it's not a great splash and that Caprice is a much better bet, but it's clearly winning games. I think a chunk of that is the surprise factor, but I wouldn't rule it out as a decent deck at the moment.
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Re: Pre-Nationals Corp Meta Analysis

Postby Sixtyten » Mon May 18, 2015 9:27 pm

Nemamiah wrote:
Brendan wrote:There's a Oxford Regionals HB punitive list you should probably look at too.


Will's punitive ETF went 7-0 at Oxford.

I actually agree with all the theory that it's not a great splash and that Caprice is a much better bet, but it's clearly winning games. I think a chunk of that is the surprise factor, but I wouldn't rule it out as a decent deck at the moment.


It certainly surprised me...
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Re: Pre-Nationals Corp Meta Analysis

Postby Phoenix » Tue May 19, 2015 11:49 am

On the theme of Punitive in HB, one of the decks I have been having a lot of success with lately (admittedly mostly on OCTGN where a lot of people don't play their Tier 1 decks, but still) is:

Cerebral Imaging: Infinite Frontiers (Creation and Control)

Agenda (8)
1x Priority Requisition (Core Set)
3x Project Vitruvius (Cyber Exodus)
1x NAPD Contract (Double Time)
1x Eden Fragment (The Spaces Between)
1x Hades Fragment (Up and Over)
1x Utopia Fragment (The Source)

Asset (3)
3x Melange Mining Corp. (Core Set)

Upgrade (5)
2x Corporate Troubleshooter (Core Set)
3x Ash 2X3ZB9CY (What Lies Ahead)

Operation (16)
2x Archived Memories (Core Set)
1x Biotic Labor (Core Set)
3x Hedge Fund (Core Set)
3x Restructure (Second Thoughts)
3x Punitive Counterstrike (True Colors) ••••• •
3x Blue Level Clearance (Fear and Loathing)
1x Reclamation Order (Double Time)

Barrier (6)
3x NEXT Silver (Upstalk)
3x Galahad (Upstalk) •••

Code Gate (6)
3x NEXT Bronze (Opening Moves)
3x Merlin (All That Remains) •••

Sentry (5)
3x Lancelot (First Contact) •••
2x NEXT Gold (The Valley)

15 influence spent (maximum 15)
20 agenda points (between 20 and 21)
49 cards (min 45)
Cards up to The Valley

Most of my wins have been from
1) Merlin/Troubleshooter flatline
2) Troubleshooter/Lancelot rig trash follows by scoring out.

I have found that the runner seeing Grail ice means they are scared to run on my Melange which means that I just get so much money, which turns on the Punitive threat.

So why not run it in ETF? Well, when I am wanting to hold 3 Punitive, 2 Grail, Operation, say 2 agendas I run out of room in my hand.

Don't get me wrong though, CI has its weakness; I have won a game after 3 Vamp 4 Siphon though :) Melange FTW!

The main changes I am contemplating are ditching the NEXT ice. I am falling out of love with them - too much parasite around!

The other deck which has been performing well for me is a derivative of a deck that Cerberus was testing some time ago. This version (together with my Kate deck) earnt me second place at the last GNK tournament (losing to the man himself in 1st) and seems to have a lot of answers to the current runner decks:

NBN: Making News (Core Set)

Agenda (10)
3x AstroScript Pilot Program (Core Set)
3x Project Beale (Future Proof)
3x Character Assassination (Opening Moves)
1x NAPD Contract (Double Time)

Asset (7)
2x Melange Mining Corp. (Core Set)
2x Private Contracts (Cyber Exodus)
3x Jackson Howard (Opening Moves)

Upgrade (5)
1x SanSan City Grid (Core Set)
2x Ash 2X3ZB9CY (What Lies Ahead) ••••
2x Crisium Grid (First Contact) ••

Operation (9)
3x Hedge Fund (Core Set)
3x Restructure (Second Thoughts)
3x Sweeps Week (True Colors)

Barrier (4)
3x Wall of Static (Core Set)
1x Wraparound (Fear and Loathing)

Code Gate (7)
3x Tollbooth (Core Set)
2x Enigma (Core Set)
2x Lotus Field (Upstalk) ••

Sentry (7)
2x Ichi 1.0 (Core Set) ••••
1x Data Raven (Core Set)
3x Dracō (What Lies Ahead)
1x Shinobi (Double Time) •••

15 influence spent (maximum 15)
20 agenda points (between 20 and 21)
49 cards (min 45)
Cards up to First Contact

It has great econ, taxing ice, horrible sentries, Ash, San San. The Dracos, in particular, brutalise anyone relying on Mimic/Femme.

Most of my wins with this deck have been
1) Astrotraining
2) Astro into 3 point Beale
3) Shinobi

The 3 point Beale, in particular, is the point of the deck - it is designed so that I need to score 3 agendas, the runner 4.

The MVC is definitely Character Assassination, however. Kati - Dead, Aesops - Dead, Deep Dig MaXX/Valencia - PW Dead ("but I have Fall Guy...." doesn't matter;)) and my personal favourite PPKate/Maxx, all recursion in bin except for a SOT on the table - no Levi for you this game then....

Just thought I'd throw these out there as some decks which are a bit of a sidestep but are a blast to play :)
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Re: Pre-Nationals Corp Meta Analysis

Postby Phoenix » Tue May 19, 2015 3:47 pm

Ok so what was the point of the last post... (I was at work when I wrote it so ended up getting distracted and losing my train of thought)

1) Great article Dave!
2) I agree with David's comment below that Melange is a fantastic economy card and one of the few ways that a corp can reliably out econ the runner at the moment (I have found anyways);
3) I agree that Punitive is still strong/viable;
4) Some way of disabling the runner economy, especially the raft of resource economy that is around at the moment, is really important if you are going to get ahead;
5) Having something to bluff out as an agenda is really key; although neither of my decks above have it, I think that Reversed Accounts is one of the strongest includes at the moment, particularly if you can then protect it with Ash.

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