Because We Built It - Part 1: Clicks and Clots

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evilgaz
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Re: Because We Built It - Part 1: Clicks and Clots

Postby evilgaz » Fri Jun 19, 2015 10:31 am

I never use Aggressive Secretary and it has done no work for me at all.

Oh no wait, its awesome. I particularly like people running it predicting a Cerebral. Especially when they make sure I'm on less than 3 creds. Or they go to make sure they've got 4 to steal an NAPD. Stupid runners.
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mendax
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Re: Because We Built It - Part 1: Clicks and Clots

Postby mendax » Fri Jun 19, 2015 10:55 am

My Report so far:

Leela: 0 games. With Quinns tournament and the Bristol BABW on consecutive weekends, I've not really had a chance to play much, and when I have I've been mainly focussing on the corp side. Speaking of which...

Bootcamp Glacier: Every game I play with this deck gets better, and I think i'm slowly beginning to learn how I'm supposed to play it - when to take the windows and when to gain money with adonis. My favourite card so far has been Oaktown Renovation, because being able to score without tempo loss is really, really good. Having said that, an over-scored atlas makes Leela sad when she's relying on Kati long term, because 1x S&G suddenly becomes a big problem for her. Having said this, being forced to use jinteki.net to play does mean that most of my games so far have been incomplete.
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HalfDayDeemo
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Re: Because We Built It - Part 1: Clicks and Clots

Postby HalfDayDeemo » Fri Jun 19, 2015 11:24 am

Bootcamp Glacier is pretty fun, though can be tricky at times. You are maneuvering your ICE to be pretty happy that the runner can be kept out so being able to score Oaktown is great.

I found that the tricky part is learning when to fetch your 3 pointer with an Atlas token.

Also regrading Aggressive Secretary; wot EvilGaz sed.
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mendax
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Re: Because We Built It - Part 1: Clicks and Clots

Postby mendax » Fri Jun 19, 2015 11:42 am

I think what I'm most impressed by with it is that it rewards player skill and experience much more than most decks I've played. I'm able to pretty much pick up and go with most non-combo decks, but this one is taking me some real time to learn.
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mendax
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Re: Because We Built It - Part 1: Clicks and Clots

Postby mendax » Fri Jun 19, 2015 12:58 pm

Another game, another atlas token -> S&G, this time for a kati on 24 owned by a headlock reina deck that was completely failing to headlock. I'm really beginning to enjoy playing the corp side of this game again, and it's been a while since I have.
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MasterAir
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Re: Because We Built It - Part 1: Clicks and Clots

Postby MasterAir » Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:13 pm

S&G is like a corp Vamp. It's good, but it's kinda surprising you can get high scores like that on Kati murdering. Bootcamps is good though. Like RP for people who really don't want to play Psi games all afternoon.
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mendax
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Re: Because We Built It - Part 1: Clicks and Clots

Postby mendax » Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:16 pm

Normally, I can't - 9 is about the most i've been getting in most games. But sometimes people don't play around it, and then it really hurts.

My worry playing bootcamps is opus - i haven't faced it yet, but remote-camping may be a problem for it.
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MasterAir
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Re: Because We Built It - Part 1: Clicks and Clots

Postby MasterAir » Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:19 pm

Let's move this to a Bootcamps discussion thread. You got a decklist you want to put up?
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HalfDayDeemo
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Re: Because We Built It - Part 1: Clicks and Clots

Postby HalfDayDeemo » Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:04 pm

Another game night down and another report. Unfortunately this is only based on a few games due to my turning up late and games running long.

Which brings me to a point that these decks (Hayley Stealth and Haas Is Boss) are pretty slow. They are definitely the types of decks you need to know inside out in order to play quickly, and I would be weary of running them together for a tourney. Without further ado...

Hayley - I won both the games I played, first vs RP and last vs Custom Biotics. Going to try and bring this back to some of the questions in the article.

How did I win?
Sitting back an rig building, while attempting to threaten any scoring remote. This can be done by deploying Stealth hardware and keeping credit total high with an SMC on the board.
What cards allowed me to do this?
Ghost Runner was pretty key, hold it in hand until the Corp thinks it has a window where they can tax too many credits. Then play it down, maybe even Hayley chain into another one, and surprise them. Switchblade, breaking Tsurugi for two recurring credits is bonkers and you generally fear no ice when you can fund it.
Why did my opponent lose?
Imo not being, or having the ability to be, aggressive enough in scoring. Both the decks I played were tipped towards late game controlling strategies. The Stealth rig takes time to build but once it is up...its really efficient.
How could I play better?
Having a better understanding of the board state mainly. Building like this means you have the capacity to get into places but then it's a case of picking the smart plays. I mostly found this difficult when dealing with asset econ early. Can I afford to trash that Adonis? Also figuring out how long is a good time to run HQ if you have a remote on lock. The deck doesn't have any HQ multi access so checking for single cards at the right time is important.
How could the deck be better?
I think that HQ multi access is a big one here. The Corp is going to be pretty focused on protecting R&D, a well timed Legwork would do wonders. Also more efficiency on draws that impact the standard credit pool, I always miss Symmetrical Visage when I don't see it so perhaps a 3rd would be viable. Finally the standard economy does get stretched still, so maybe another avenue for this would help.

HB - I won one game vs Noise and lost another vs PPvP Kate. The noise game was a different beast so I'll talk about the Kate deck.

How did I lose?
I really want to say one word here, Clot, but I'll say that it was because I couldn't find those early scoring windows to put me in an ok position late game. I did my best to utilise Director Haas, think I cleared Clot off the board twice and it was still knocking about. Each game though I'm feeling that R&D gives up the Agendas.
How did my opponent win?
She was careful to always have a method for running my remote or bringing out the clot for FA. Breaker on table with SMC, Clone Chip and SMC in the bin, these were utilised while building board state.
How could I play better?
Make R&D more taxing, not only can they multi access butblooks trash your stuff. Rush out an ABT with Jackson on the board. Save Eve Campaigns for Breakers Bay. Fetch Haas (Tech Startup) at the right time.
How could the deck be better?
I know the article said not to talk about cards but I am still never happy to see Mandatory upgrades, three turns is just too long, and trying to combo with Haas is awkward at best. More generally, a better way to deal with viruses and heap recursion would be cool.

So that's my progress up to now, anyone else still following along? Any ideas on when we might see the next article Coop? Looking forward to it.
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Sixtyten
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Re: Because We Built It - Part 1: Clicks and Clots

Postby Sixtyten » Wed Jun 24, 2015 1:54 pm

I can Haas clicks pleeze managed to get me several 5 click turns during our BABW tournament on Saturday. Using the Director to score out a Mandy is great fun. Haven't played against a turntable yet though...
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GuyCliquil
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Re: Because We Built It - Part 1: Clicks and Clots

Postby GuyCliquil » Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:16 pm

As per instruction I took the proper decks to my regular Oxford night last night and had some decent games.

HB:ETF vs Kit (Sincil Banks)

This game demonstrated some of this decks real strengths in terms of economic dominance. The ability to just rez Eves and Ashes for free, whilst getting an almost guaraneed 1 credit per turn from the core ability just mounts up over time. It also, due to its well put together agenda mix meant that I would have had to have given up 8 agenda points in order to lose. In the end I did give up 3 "agendas" (one of which was a Director Haas I had thought was safe due to her trash cost, before Ghost Runner told me I had made a mistake in Kit's access to credits). Once again as well Caprice and Ash on one server with Breaker Bay just created one hell of an ask, even with only 2 relatively taxing pieces of ice.

Fair play to Sincil as well, there were some accesses here and there that could have yielded the extra needed to tip him over into victory. And as usual Caprice's psi games made a difference; again that economy just meant that my betting 2 credits was a fair deal to me for keeping him out of a server where betting 2 credits was a bit potential tax if he wanted to start trashing things. I think Ash really shines against a stealth deck because it is less used to building huge amounts of credits.

Leela vs the Dreaded Cybernetics Division

OK, I saw the ID and I wet myself a little. This may have contributed to my loss, even with the Netdecked Cereberus' Leela.

I think I did OK though - I was on six points for most of the match but I over relied on Leela's ability. I allowed the 3/1 scores of the Brainchips twice which rapidly made my handsize untenable forcing me to ditch cards I may have wanted to keep. I kept plugging away at R&D seeing two cards consistently but never able to get any more agendas before I was left with a heavily defended Archives, HQ, R&D and scoring server. I ran on HQ and saw an Ichi, which itself was infrong of an Ichi, which had an Eli for ending runs. I realise now I should have gone with Crazy Plan A - Running through the Ichis letting my rig trash, outspend on the traces (I had a credit advantage after the Ichi rez), click through the Eli and access 1 card in HQ. I figured at the time there was a 1 in 3 chance of seeing an agenda (in actualy fact it was 2 in 3). Instead what I did was jack out and run the scoring remote, hoping that it wasn't a trap. It was a trap, and I lost to brain damage. He kept exaclty the 3 credits needed for the Overwriter; I should have seen that when there were no more ice rezzes in the remote (I thought it might all be a bluff. Not unreasonable, but a mistake none the less)

I have had a problems throwing Leela at slower more Glaciar decks. I think I may have needed to be more aggressive; I got off to a great start but in fear of Snares, Edges of Worlds, even early on the potential for Punitive and all sort of other nasties I sat back.

This did give me an observaion on how I think this deck is best played; using that early fear to build defences.

HB:Etf vs Noise (Master Air)

I was trying to adapt my play from my previous loss against Brendan's Noise. This lead to my rushing out agendas (an overadvanced Project Vitty I don't regret and an NAPD that left me broke that I do) to the expense of the defence of R&D. It was mainly from R&D that I lost that game; I did lose an NAPD early on to D4Vid smashing through two Turings but I was willing to take that loss as it got me the Vitty. I did gain the tip from Dan that whenever an Eve/BBGrid is run I can, of course, rez them both so that trashing just the Grid isn't a 5 credit loss to the corp.

All in all I was just beaten fair and square; the Noise Mill didn't knock any agendas out of R&D but probably knocked enough useful pieces out that my hand was consistently left with few options. It is concievable that I could have tried to draw further to catch a jackson or something but I think ultimately, as Dan put it, I was put in a bad position.

---

I was then naughty and played my GRINDL again. :oops: But it was sooooo muuuuch fuuuun!


----

tl:dr - I played the decks again but I have some questions:

Ref Leela: Is that deck more built for a more horizontal deck environment? Is she stronger against the classic NEH or the Fast advancing other decks? I have found it difficult to maintain pressure against a fully done rig. What am I doing wrong, or is that just the nature of the deck and I need to try and get the victory earlier? (I suppose that might BE what I am doing wrong to be fair!)

Ref HB: I don't have any questions except maybe how best to deal with the Noise match up, or perhaps decks that in general get destroying me before I am properly set up.

Private Cliquil out.
"Guy, you are often right for all the wrong reasons. And if you are wrong, it is always for right reasons." - Brendan .
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mendax
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Re: Because We Built It - Part 1: Clicks and Clots

Postby mendax » Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:33 pm

Leela does struggle with glaciers more, I think.

Against Noise, you probably want to be defending R&D more than HQ, which it sounds like you weren't doing.
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Re: Because We Built It - Part 1: Clicks and Clots

Postby GuyCliquil » Tue Jun 30, 2015 2:10 pm

mendax wrote:
Against Noise, you probably want to be defending R&D more than HQ, which it sounds like you weren't doing.


I did defend it a bit, but my first choice (Tollbooth) I couldn't get the money to rez soon, then the Viper got Yogged, and then the Architect just got walked through eventually. I think I just needed to plan that defence better, or weather a storm until I could get the Tollbooth rezzed and not try and patch it over.
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MasterAir
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Re: Because We Built It - Part 1: Clicks and Clots

Postby MasterAir » Tue Jun 30, 2015 2:49 pm

Noise is pretty formidable against all 3 centrals. Imp is scary. Lamprey is a consideration. Nerve Agent is a pretty reasonable card in a world of many glaciers. Stuff gets chucked in the bin. That's probably his main strength. Medium at 4 counters is often game over though. Medium is really good.

I think the only way to figure out matchups that you're struggling with is to sleeve them up and play them. PPVP Kate seems invincible sometimes, but if you play the deck you realise that SMCs are limited and the money is bursty but finite. Noise is really sad about double eli servers, for example. Strength 4 ice is the best vs. Noise. To be fair to you, the double Turing server was pretty intimidating, had I not found my D4v1d I'd have been in some trouble. I don't think you ever want to go broke in netrunner, if you can avoid it at all. You probably should have clicked for credits for a turn or put an adonis back in the server and stabilised before trying to score out. 0 is a great number of credits to see your opponent on.
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Re: Because We Built It - Part 1: Clicks and Clots

Postby Cerberus » Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:01 pm

GuyCliquil wrote:
Leela vs the Dreaded Cybernetics Division

OK, I saw the ID and I wet myself a little. This may have contributed to my loss, even with the Netdecked Cereberus' Leela.

I think I did OK though - I was on six points for most of the match but I over relied on Leela's ability. I allowed the 3/1 scores of the Brainchips twice which rapidly made my handsize untenable forcing me to ditch cards I may have wanted to keep. I kept plugging away at R&D seeing two cards consistently but never able to get any more agendas before I was left with a heavily defended Archives, HQ, R&D and scoring server. I ran on HQ and saw an Ichi, which itself was infrong of an Ichi, which had an Eli for ending runs. I realise now I should have gone with Crazy Plan A - Running through the Ichis letting my rig trash, outspend on the traces (I had a credit advantage after the Ichi rez), click through the Eli and access 1 card in HQ. I figured at the time there was a 1 in 3 chance of seeing an agenda (in actualy fact it was 2 in 3). Instead what I did was jack out and run the scoring remote, hoping that it wasn't a trap. It was a trap, and I lost to brain damage. He kept exaclty the 3 credits needed for the Overwriter; I should have seen that when there were no more ice rezzes in the remote (I thought it might all be a bluff. Not unreasonable, but a mistake none the less)

I have had a problems throwing Leela at slower more Glaciar decks. I think I may have needed to be more aggressive; I got off to a great start but in fear of Snares, Edges of Worlds, even early on the potential for Punitive and all sort of other nasties I sat back.

This did give me an observaion on how I think this deck is best played; using that early fear to build defences.

HB:Etf vs Noise (Master Air)

I was trying to adapt my play from my previous loss against Brendan's Noise. This lead to my rushing out agendas (an overadvanced Project Vitty I don't regret and an NAPD that left me broke that I do) to the expense of the defence of R&D. It was mainly from R&D that I lost that game; I did lose an NAPD early on to D4Vid smashing through two Turings but I was willing to take that loss as it got me the Vitty. I did gain the tip from Dan that whenever an Eve/BBGrid is run I can, of course, rez them both so that trashing just the Grid isn't a 5 credit loss to the corp.

All in all I was just beaten fair and square; the Noise Mill didn't knock any agendas out of R&D but probably knocked enough useful pieces out that my hand was consistently left with few options. It is concievable that I could have tried to draw further to catch a jackson or something but I think ultimately, as Dan put it, I was put in a bad position.

---

I was then naughty and played my GRINDL again. :oops: But it was sooooo muuuuch fuuuun!


----

tl:dr - I played the decks again but I have some questions:

Ref Leela: Is that deck more built for a more horizontal deck environment? Is she stronger against the classic NEH or the Fast advancing other decks? I have found it difficult to maintain pressure against a fully done rig. What am I doing wrong, or is that just the nature of the deck and I need to try and get the victory earlier? (I suppose that might BE what I am doing wrong to be fair!)

Ref HB: I don't have any questions except maybe how best to deal with the Noise match up, or perhaps decks that in general get destroying me before I am properly set up.

Private Cliquil out.


Leela Endless Waltz was definitely built with an NEH dominant meta in mind, however I wanted a deck that could also deal with glacier, hence the dual economy of security testing and Kati.
I initially thought that after the release of Clot I would stop playing her but she's been really consistent against glacier with an alternate play style.
The trick is to attack early and try to score while the Corp is in the early game, if you do score your ability sets them back and keeps them in the early game longer. However the key is knowing when to stop your aggressive running and just build, once you have a full breaker suite and R&DI out the deck can be incredibly dangerous as the Corp scoring will often create cheap r&d access. It's important not to bankrupt yourself and leave the Corp scoring windows, but this is my general play.
I think your glacier match ups are something you'll need to practice for them to be strong. But the deck has beaten some top names in the UK playing glacier so it is winnable, but it's probably got a lower win rate overall against glacier.

Does this help? Any questions?
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GuyCliquil
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Re: Because We Built It - Part 1: Clicks and Clots

Postby GuyCliquil » Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:24 am

Don't want to dominate the thread but do want to pop in and say thanks to Mendax, MasterAir & Cerberus for the advice on here. I am enjoying learning the Leela deck in particular and am looking forward to playing it against more glacier. I think I need to learn, in both my runner and corp play, to think long term. I have been to prone to bankrupt myself to score/steal an agenda at the expense of general board position. I think only experience will teach me that long term view, but this advice will certainly foreground all of that as I push on.

Thanks again.
"Guy, you are often right for all the wrong reasons. And if you are wrong, it is always for right reasons." - Brendan .
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