Because We Built It - Part 2: Swapping and Trucking

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Because We Built It - Part 2: Swapping and Trucking

Postby Chimpster » Tue Jul 07, 2015 10:09 am

Site Article: http://netrunners.co.uk/articles/becaus ... t%202.html

Have you been doing your homework? I certainly hope so, or Mr Coop will be thoroughly disappointed with you in part 2 of his Netrunner deckbuilding school! Here he follows on from the reports and progress made since part 1, with yet more homework to follow. School is most definitely not out for summer ladies and gentlemen!
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Re: Because We Built It - Part 2: Swapping and Trucking

Postby HalfDayDeemo » Fri Jul 10, 2015 4:35 pm

Guess I'll kick things off by discussing my initial swaps;

Hayley Stealth: I really want to see how Professional Contacts works in this deck. However as Symmetrical Visage is just a 1 of I would really like this swap to be more impactful. Hence I am removing the two Earthrise Hotels and the baby for a full compliment of Pro. Co. All of the cards increase draw efficiency, and I want to see if the clock less draw of Earthrise is actually what makes the deck tick.

Haas Is Boss: After having so much trouble utilising the deck's namesake I would really like to see how the deck functions without that fast advance side to it. I originally toyed with swapping Haas for Haas Jr. but realised that Tommy loses impact if you fetch him with Tech Startup. So instead I've gone with Eliza's Toybox. Rez-ing some of the more expensive ICE for free should allow more for Ash traces and Psi games, and it can also be rezzed for free with Breakers Bay Grid.

What swaps are you guys considering?
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Re: Because We Built It - Part 2: Swapping and Trucking

Postby Sixtyten » Fri Jul 10, 2015 4:52 pm

Feedback on the changes to the "I can HAAS more clicks, please?" deck (my name and I'm sticking with it) swapping eve for al1x.

First, the reaction to Al1x is quite hilarious with 4 opponents asking what on earth it is. It took several games to understand how the card works most effectively, but can be brutal early and left for several turns of installs. While it doesn't pay as much out over time as Eve and has a lower trash cost making R&D weaker, several players ignored it not understanding why it might be useful. Then, when I'd gained 8-10 credits with it they regretted their decision.

The partial issue is over risk/reward and how long do I leave one out for. Also it requires a click to use which is frustrating. I'll keep testing.

Also, surely the 2nd week should be oaktown grid instead of underway - at the moment I consider underway grid to be useless in my meta...
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Re: Because We Built It - Part 2: Swapping and Trucking

Postby pruneface » Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:39 pm

Sixtyten wrote:
Also, surely the 2nd week should be oaktown grid instead of underway - at the moment I consider underway grid to be useless in my meta...


No crims? I want to run Underway just so I can block an inside job/femme and get that warm fuzzy feeling inside.
Underway does pretty much nothing to factions without expose and bypass though. Given that femme is rare in shaper and anarch at best I can see why you might want to give it a miss.

The real region you should be testing is, of course, ruhr valley grid. ;)
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Re: Because We Built It - Part 2: Swapping and Trucking

Postby mendax » Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:00 pm

I'm the only crim, and I run far more denial than bypass.
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Re: Because We Built It - Part 2: Swapping and Trucking

Postby Sixtyten » Sat Jul 11, 2015 12:45 am

pruneface wrote:
Sixtyten wrote:
Also, surely the 2nd week should be oaktown grid instead of underway - at the moment I consider underway grid to be useless in my meta...


No crims? I want to run Underway just so I can block an inside job/femme and get that warm fuzzy feeling inside.
Underway does pretty much nothing to factions without expose and bypass though. Given that femme is rare in shaper and anarch at best I can see why you might want to give it a miss.

The real region you should be testing is, of course, ruhr valley grid. ;)


I was the main person using bypass in the meta until I switched to noise
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Re: Because We Built It - Part 2: Swapping and Trucking

Postby SmoothCoop » Sun Jul 12, 2015 10:35 pm

Excellent swaps so far! Looking forward to seeing how Eliza's Toybox works out - it's very action heavy, also loses the surprise of ICE.

Alix is pretty much an unsung hit - however, once people know about it, she'll be getting trashed. I'll be discussing this in a future article, but a good Tier 1/2 deck should be able to be shown to your opponent before you play, and you should still win. Bonkers, I know, but the sign of a good deck.

Feel free to try Oaktown instead of Underway - let me know how you get on :)
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Re: Because We Built It - Part 2: Swapping and Trucking

Postby GuyCliquil » Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:46 pm

Hello - update has been overdue but to summarise:

I took the decks, unaltered, to a tournament in Reading and came 8th of 18th which is a million billion percent higher than I have come previously. Overrall the Leela did much of the legword (surprisingly this pun is not appropriate as most of my HQ steals were Sneaky Sneakdoors) and I do find myself really enjoying that deck. The Leela deck only actually dropped one game and that was against a very strong HB deck that ended up with a 5 click turn - the player then took second in the tournament so I felt a lot better about that loss.

In terms of the Part 2 I did the following;

Leela - -2 Security Testing, +2 Drive By

This was in part a meta call - which is why I felt comfortable doing it (it feels awfully uncomfortable messing with this deck, I feel so arrogant doing it. I was helped that I could kid myself that if this card had been around when the deck was created it might be in there!). There is little horizontal play in Oxford and when I went to Reading I faced very little horizontal play which allows Security Testing to really show its stuff. I was finding it in my hand more often than on the table and every time I looked for somewhere to put it the cost of breaking the ice was more than the 2c I would get from the Sec Test (or, often, even the 3c for Desp/Sec test combo). Drive By came along as a perfect fit - I have wanted to have a solution for some Mushining out of Overwriters that is going on around Oxford at the moment and this card offered that. Plus I feel like it is useful against deeper decks that want to spring Ash/Caprice/Batty or such like against me.

First game with this new combo was NEH which immediately started going wide. I felt stupid. Luckily the Drive By proved its use by smashing a PAD campaign which could have been a SanSan (as it happened ApeAsylum, whom I played against, just couldn't draw them for love nor money which is part of why this game went my way). It also occurs to me that it is a safe way to smash a SanSan that is unrezzed without fearing the Sea Source Scorch if the Corp has the money advantage. That makes it very useful. In other games it was able to hit Private Security Contract, Jackson Howard, and revealed an NAPD to me which became very useful information. The card works, the card stays.

Not sure what to switch around with next - I might start trying to gradually work ways around the cards I don't own which are many. Faerie, Desperado, a third Siphon, third Dirty Laundry are all very useful cards though - it will be quite the study to work around them I am sure. Time will tell!

As an aside I discovered how stupid I can be at the end of the long day when I totally forgot that other players were allowed to play SEA Source Scorch. I thought only I was. Poor Leela.

HB : -1 Director Haas, -1 Tech Startup, +2 Biotic Labour.

This tale is short as I shall be abandoning this part of the program. I played against ApeAslyum again and thoroughly did not enjoy being outmoneyed. I felt very restricted in this HB jacket and my GRINDL deck is calling for more attention (I will be posting it on the Deck forum soon as it is genuinely exciting). I haven't really given this HB deck much attention and it always feels like the deck I ought to play, rather than the deck I want to play, plus it probably doesn't suit me.

Not taking anything away from the deck at all. It is very effective at what it does, it just probably doesn't entirely suit me. I am glad I have taken it this far though - it gives me a better understanding of its options etc.
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Re: Because We Built It - Part 2: Swapping and Trucking

Postby Cerberus » Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:12 pm

Guy,

This is my current Leela list:
Leela - Endless Waltz v6

Leela Patel: Trained Pragmatist

Event (21)
3x Account Siphon
3x Dirty Laundry
2x Drive By
2x Emergency Shutdown
2x Inside Job
2x Legwork
1x Lucky Find ••
3x Special Order
3x Sure Gamble

Hardware (8)
3x Desperado
2x Plascrete Carapace
3x R&D Interface ••••• •

Resource (7)
2x Kati Jones
1x Same Old Thing
2x Security Testing
2x Symmetrical Visage

Icebreaker (9)
2x Corroder ••••
3x Faerie
1x Femme Fatale
1x Mimic •
1x Passport
1x ZU.13 Key Master ••

Program (1)
1x Sneakdoor Beta

15 influence spent (max 15)
46 cards (min 45)
Cards up to The Underway

Deck built on http://netrunnerdb.com.

If you aren't liking Security Testing I'd definitely go up to 3 Kati or try 2 Daily Casts. If you ever have questions about the Leela deck feel free to ask here or drop me a PM, always happy to chat :)
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Re: Because We Built It - Part 2: Swapping and Trucking

Postby MasterAir » Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:34 pm

I'm not sure about cutting sec testing from Endless Waltz. Even if it isn't econ it's strong pressure on the corp to effectively ice all servers. Ice rezzed over archives is an investment the corp could have made elsewhere. You play Leela pretty well Guy, that deck definitely doesn't drive itself.
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Re: Because We Built It - Part 2: Swapping and Trucking

Postby MasterAir » Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:38 pm

Is Symmetrical Visage really good enough to have 2 of? There's a bunch of alternatives like Tri-maf contact, casts, armitage that removes the dead draw later. I like SV but I think it's marginal enough to not want a second.
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Re: Because We Built It - Part 2: Swapping and Trucking

Postby Cerberus » Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:53 pm

MasterAir wrote:Is Symmetrical Visage really good enough to have 2 of? There's a bunch of alternatives like Tri-maf contact, casts, armitage that removes the dead draw later. I like SV but I think it's marginal enough to not want a second.


Its been super strong so I'd much rather draw it than a Daily Casts or Armitage, it's also better early game so two feels right. Seems worth testing other options though, I'm playing other stuff currently so haven't put much thought into it.
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Re: Because We Built It - Part 2: Swapping and Trucking

Postby GuyCliquil » Wed Jul 15, 2015 9:46 pm

On the matter of Security Testing you may be right MasterAir - but I always like to make them forget archives as thing as that can double the brutality of sneakdoor. If they ice up Archives in preparation of said Sneakdoor it has already done its job as a threat.

I'd also say that I agree completely on Symmetrical Visage - anyone who has played me recently knows that I have just been saying "Click one I'll baby" constantly and it just adds that subtle little boost that doesn't sound great until you mount it up. Depending on how you view it in my games it has probably average a 10 credit boost or a 10 card draw depending on which I would normally have done. It is very easy to use the same turn it is installed so it instantly only costs 1 credit, if you're willing to look at it like that. Take it for a spin! The baby has powers.

Thanks for the new list Cerberus - I notice the icebreakers have gone down, as has Sneakdoor. Are you finding you aren't needing the backup so much - i.e. that you are drawing the breakers and/or Sneakdoor reliably enough that you felt OK dropping those two programs to add the Drive By or did you do so reluctantly because you needed to make room for it? Is the Legwork more the swap for the Sneakdoor or am I looking at that wrong?

When you recommend a third Kati and/or Daily Casts as a possible alternative to Security Testing is Armitage not an option because the clicks aren't there?

Oh and I've just remembered - what do you do about program trashing? With Marcus Batty around, and some clever usage of Power Shutdowns coming my way there seems to be at least cause for moderate concern. Do you essentially just try to play avoiding those traps/potentials or are you considering some recursion?

That's a lot of questions so feel free to disregard but I find this deck continually fascinating and the rest of the land seems to be full of Shapers and Anarchs at the moment so I'm not being able to spy on too many other decks for clues!
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Re: Because We Built It - Part 2: Swapping and Trucking

Postby Cerberus » Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:11 am

Hey,

I'm going to cover off one of your last questions first because I think it's important, Batty and Power Shutdown are brutal against this deck and criminal generally because of the lack of recursion. I think previously when you could just play smart to avoid program destruction it was fine but Batty causes serious problems for an archetype with no recursion. It's a huge risk with playing this deck at the moment, however I wouldn't change anything as you'll just make your other match ups worse. If I did test anything it would be dropping the Lucky Find for a Clone Chip and then adding additional economy somewhere.

Other questions - I found that I wasn't playing Rex in 99% of my games, and therefore when I was looking at deck slots for Drive By this was an obvious one for me.
Armitage over Casts is fine, I just prefer casts as it tempers me as a runner.
The Sneak door and Legwork swap is just a simple change I go back and forth on, ideally I'd run 2 of each but alas deck slots. Looking back at past iterations of EW it has been very fluid so just stick with what you want here, both are viable.
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Re: Because We Built It - Part 2: Swapping and Trucking

Postby Sixtyten » Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:24 am

SmoothCoop wrote:Feel free to try Oaktown instead of Underway - let me know how you get on :)


Promptly was inside jobbed in my first game last night on my scoring server...

Actually I think that Oaktown is still stronger against all card effects apart from Drive By. Otherwise you need to rez everything immediately which loses the element of surprise (lots of value) and is expensive...

More testing required, but Al1x is now consistently gaining me 8 or so credits before firing. It also combos deliciously with a successful ABT
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Re: Because We Built It - Part 2: Swapping and Trucking

Postby HalfDayDeemo » Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:27 am

Once again only managed to play a few games due to practising for a single core set tournament we will be having soon.

Eliza's Toybox is interesting but I don't think I'm going to keep it in the deck. I had a turn of tutoring it with Tech Startup (which is a great interaction btw) and then rez-ing a Heimdall for free. However I quickly realised that there just wasn't enough higher cost ICE to get value out of it. Spending 3 clicks for 4ish cost ICE isn't great.

Will report on Hayley when I get some more games in.
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Re: Because We Built It - Part 2: Swapping and Trucking

Postby GuyCliquil » Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:00 pm

I did a great deal of changes to the Leela deck this Monday for 2 reasons:

1 - I did not do any changes last week because there was a mini tournament and I didn't want to do anything embarrassing
2- I wanted to at least have one week where I was actually using cards I own rather than using a lot of "alt art" cards or borrowing extensively.

So I made the following changes, all of which are necessities rather than choices!
- 1 Siphon, -1 Dirty Laundry : I replaced these with simple econ
-3 Desperados : I thought of this initially as a console with MU so toyed with putting Logos in but in the end I went for more econ. My econ comprised of Armitage, Daily Casts &, oddly, a pair of Bank Jobs.

The Faeries also had to go as I also don't own them so I switched out the entire sentry breaker suite for Switchblade, Ghost Runners & some Silencers. This was actually surprisingly effective- I thought I would lack a little speed up and running and it is true that some of the early turns didn't have instant face checking pressure. Ghost Runner though really enabled two cards to threaten and entire area - and it was slightly less vulnerable to Power Shutdown. It also enabled me to accumulate vast amounts of cash to spend on Zu and Corroder. I may have just had good draw but I actually didn't find this as terrible as I expected.

What I did find however was that it was a bit more of a slow build kind of deck in a lot of cases; I am not sure if this is different playstyle or the different makeup of the deck. I think to truly capture the spirit of the Endless Waltz I should be more aggressive than I think I am being, Then again, it was still reasonably effective; whether I am getting better at a style of Leela that is not the same or if that is an adaptive way of playing it I don't know

Some key moments included using Drive By on a Mushining out Cybernetics Division deck of EVIL, seeing it was an agenda, and being in a solid enough economic position to steal and not fear a Punitive. Another was running on a double Cricked Archives vs RP and thus crippling my econ on the first piece of ice and just failing to break the second. It was a massive mistake, and it had come after legworking after a JAckson discard which Stu rightfully pointed out was an error. Those kind of errors are annoying to make but thankfully they come down to the smaller scale and are easily corrected where I feel broad instinct and strategy, such as these lessons seem to be teaching me, have eluded me so far.

I will be returning to a more conventional list on Saturday if I go to Reading - that is still undecided - but it was educational going outside the list as is.

I am not sure what my week 4 change will be. I am tempted to sub Peaock in for Zu to see how it handles and throw in maybe a clone chip for the recursion factor.

Hope others are getting along fine too.
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Re: Because We Built It - Part 2: Swapping and Trucking

Postby Sixtyten » Tue Jul 28, 2015 6:32 pm

Took HB to my GNK this week (finishing 5th out of 10 with same presteige as 3rd). After adding in project ares and marcus last week for practising, I promptly took out all but one marcus, kept the ares and swapped back eves and breaker bay for al1x and oaktown grid. I also swapped the wraparound for a blacklist.

The deck went 4/1 with agenda flood and no ice resulting in a loss to Rob (Mendax). I definitely feel I have a gauge for the strengths and weaknesses of the deck. Losing Man Up for ares meant I was less keen to get the director out and am definitely thinking of swapping out her and the tech start up for 2 biotics. When the click tax and blacklist start hitting runners where it hurts this deck can be brutal. Prepaid kate is a big problem and I'm planning on making some further changes to try and improve my game vs her. I guess the question I need to ask is, is this the deck I want to take to worlds...
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Re: Because We Built It - Part 2: Swapping and Trucking

Postby SmoothCoop » Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:26 am

Hello to all!

Great to see all the deck ideas. Being stuck on a tiny phone means i can't see all the posts I'm replying about. (Moving house...)

Endless Waltz had a nice boost (I guess) in The Underway, with the help of Muertos and Drive-By. Whether these cards remain in is a different matter, but each gives a different style of control.

Lot of hate for Director Haas and Man Up on here - in their defence, the aim of the deck is to amass a lot of clicks to quickly whip agendas out. HB is excellent early game for keeping runners out (or incredibly click poor), so prepping a remote for Haas or an agenda is a plus. Changing to Biotic gives a quick burst of agenda scoring power, but Haas keeps that power going. If you do nothing but click for credits with Haas, that's a Gila Haas Arcology and a credit - at the very least, you keep up with the runner on their turns. Any Man Up scored is a bonus, as you start to have more clicks than a runner (Madness...).
I think people are moving to mid-range HB, hence the changes, but click advantage is always big. That's why Fastrobiotics does so well - SanSan City Grid is perfect click advantage.

I submitted part 3 a couple of weeks ago, so am hoping it goes up by Friday. This talks about building a corp deck. As a last exercise on your netdecks, try putting them back to their original netdeck - are you winning more or less games than the modified one? Why is that?

See you in part 3! It's pretty philosophical.

Coop
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Re: Because We Built It - Part 2: Swapping and Trucking

Postby Sixtyten » Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:29 pm

Thanks Coop!
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