Perfect Blue

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Chimpster
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Perfect Blue

Postby Chimpster » Sun Aug 30, 2015 10:54 pm

Site Article: http://netrunners.co.uk/articles/perfect%20blue.html

Our resident Criminal expert and 2014 UK National Champion, David Hoyland, has cast his analytical eyes over the state of the Criminal faction and where they are in the current meta. It seems like only yesterday Andysucker was dominating the competitive scene, yet now Criminal is seen as dead in the water. What has gone wrong? Has the great hivemind of Netrunner cast them off a little harshly?
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ice-squid
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Re: Perfect Blue

Postby ice-squid » Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:06 pm

Terrific article - helps me (as a "not tournament competitor") better understand some of the fundamentals as well as current metagame issues.

I wonder if the Criminal IDs in the SanSan cycle are intended to start a reinvigoration of the faction through slight changes in direction; it seems a bit odd that there are 2 in quick succession?

I like the concept that Geist continues the Criminal sub-theme of using one-shot tricks but in a different way (and has some new supporting breakers), and that Fisk has something that messes with HQ but is a bit disruptive and Anarch-y, but both seem to me like they cater to folks at the more casual end (which is fine with me as a member of that audience)... at the moment at least.
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Re: Perfect Blue

Postby mendax » Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:01 pm

I'm really struggling to see how Fisk is anything other than just plain bad. Maybe I'll be proved wrong, but I think that he's not like Geist (who, whilst perhaps not great, at least does something interesting).
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Re: Perfect Blue

Postby Cerberus » Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:16 am

mendax wrote:I'm really struggling to see how Fisk is anything other than just plain bad. Maybe I'll be proved wrong, but I think that he's not like Geist (who, whilst perhaps not great, at least does something interesting).


He may end up not being good. But it's way too early to tell, and there hasn't been enough testing done with him to make that call.

People told me Leela was bad remember.
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Re: Perfect Blue

Postby Brendan » Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:27 am

Cerberus wrote:People told me Leela was bad remember.


Yes. Please let's remember how badly Leela was judged prior to testing. Fisk has an ability that looks just as subtle and hard to evaluate.
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Re: Perfect Blue

Postby Cerberus » Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:19 am

Brendan wrote:
Cerberus wrote:People told me Leela was bad remember.


Yes. Please let's remember how badly Leela was judged prior to testing. Fisk has an ability that looks just as subtle and hard to evaluate.


I think he may be harder to find the right deck build for, but I do think he will be playable. Especially while we are in a meta with asset heavy economy and its more difficult for the Corp to just off load cards for economy.
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Re: Perfect Blue

Postby Panda with issues... » Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:16 pm

mendax wrote:I'm really struggling to see how Fisk is anything other than just plain bad. Maybe I'll be proved wrong, but I think that he's not like Geist (who, whilst perhaps not great, at least does something interesting).


How is doing something that you can already do (drawing cards, Geist) more interesting than doing something you can't already do (forcing the corp to draw cards, Fisk)?

Let's not beat around the bush here. Geist's ability may well turn out to be stronger, but I don't think there's any way you can call it more interesting.
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Re: Perfect Blue

Postby Kesterer » Wed Sep 02, 2015 2:49 pm

Cerberus wrote:
Brendan wrote:
Cerberus wrote:People told me Leela was bad remember.


Yes. Please let's remember how badly Leela was judged prior to testing. Fisk has an ability that looks just as subtle and hard to evaluate.


I think he may be harder to find the right deck build for, but I do think he will be playable. Especially while we are in a meta with asset heavy economy and its more difficult for the Corp to just off load cards for economy.


Yeah, it's a good call that slower asset-dependent corps are less likely to appreciate the free draw - but it's a good illustration that Fisk is going to be very meta-dependent, I think, even if he does work. I'm pretty sure you barely ever want to fire his ability against NEH or HB rush, which is all I'm seeing in the local meta post-Faust.

As with Geist before him, I wonder if trying to make Crim headlock is the way to go for Fisk? Giving the corp cards is double-edged, so you need to maximise the chances your ability will fire when it's worst for the corp - which is when they're poor and can't use them. You can also skip spending inf on Keyhole/Medium for R&D pressure entirely if you plan to just take agendas as they filter into HQ.
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Re: Perfect Blue

Postby Cerberus » Wed Sep 02, 2015 4:02 pm

I think economy denial could be strong against asset based economy decks, but I'm actually not sure. Simply because logically you will be feeding you opponent economy cards, but it still seems good.
Interestingly I think feeding more cards to an NEH FA deck would generally be good as the decks main weakness is flooding from the increased draw and increasing it further may well take it past tipping point.

Still, early days, but worth testing all of the above :)
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Re: Perfect Blue

Postby ice-squid » Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:30 pm

Indeed - agree that Fisk looks underpowered at first but is certainly interesting on further noodling.

Having realised that the ability is triggered off successful runs on, and potentially impacts, all 3 central servers, it seems to me that you could go in multiple directions of keeping some pressure up under the same basic plan (including Apocalypse hilarity if you really wanted).

Hopefully a lot of fun deckbuilding to come, even if this isn't the next coming of Criminal.
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Re: Perfect Blue

Postby pruneface » Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:52 pm

Another (janky) direction to take fisk is a mill deck. Using and recurring fisk investment plan (with deja vu) + fisk's ability + let's say, siphon/dlr/fall guy or something.
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Re: Perfect Blue

Postby mendax » Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:11 pm

Geist's ID ability is less interesting, but his decks tend to be very different from other crim builds. Apart from DLR stuff, which is not the most fun thing in the world, I can't see how fisk generates interesting decks.
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Re: Perfect Blue

Postby Cerberus » Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:59 pm

mendax wrote:Geist's ID ability is less interesting, but his decks tend to be very different from other crim builds. Apart from DLR stuff, which is not the most fun thing in the world, I can't see how fisk generates interesting decks.


Because it speeds up the game, you need to keep clearing agendas out of HQ orrisk getting flooded.
It means you can very much focus on HQ if you have the remote or their economy locked down.
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Re: Perfect Blue

Postby GuyCliquil » Thu Sep 03, 2015 5:37 pm

I suppose the ultimate "Is Laramy useful?" Question is "Are you always trying to draw?" If, as a Corp, you are always trying to maximise your draw then fine but if that is true why doesn't Anonymous Tip seem like an auto incl use, or Blue/Green Level Clearance? You might tell me because Jackson is your answer to that desire to draw lots which may be true for you. Maybe yoye games feel like races with the runner to get stuff out of your deck.

I suspect however that, in fact, in many games there are times where you want to stabilise your position and play a little defensively. This is, in my view, particularly done against Criminals; closing off easy places for Andy sucker boosts, or weak points for Leela bounces. This play exists, and I think it is hard for criminals to have blue answers to these problems. There are some white partial responses to be sure - Kati Jones remains useful and baby draw can help prepare. Even codebusting and Daily Casts are strong in a slower pace game. I would argue none compare to the ability of Anarchs to be trashing your defences or Shapers to just develop insanely brilliant rigs for shrugging off your Ice. This is why I agree, for what by view from the foothills is worth, with the excellent article above.

To get back to Laramy the reason I think he might be interesting is he aims to stop that anti blue strategy of building solidly and easing the pace of the game. He forces you into compromises based on the fact that you can't not discard some of what you have drawn. Do you ditch econ? Ice? Assets? Traps? Agendas? Jackson will give you some back for sure, but he won't give it all back.

This faster pace is where criminals want to be. That is where weakspots emerge.
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Re: Perfect Blue

Postby MasterAir » Mon Sep 14, 2015 1:44 pm

I think Fisk is really interesting.

If you aren't very careful. His ability (and that of FIS) is beneficial to the Corp. There are very few games where the corp player doesn't draw any cards, you need to be really careful about giving away free clicks to your opponent. I've certainly seen vinegarymink comment to say that FIS is a card he wants the runner to be playing, while he's corping. For this reason, I think it's going to take a lot of work to make a good Fisk deck. Because if it's not good, it'll be worse than a blank ID.

I really hope Laramy Fisk is a worthwhile ID. It's a really interesting direction for the game to take. He's probably not going to be good enough, but I'm going to give him a fair work out. Probably be more forgiving of early disasters than I usually am.
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Re: Perfect Blue

Postby mendax » Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:12 pm

I've seen Fisk play the DLR, Net Pavillion, Paparazzi etc decks, but i think Val does that better.
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Re: Perfect Blue

Postby Panda with issues... » Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:16 pm

We're living in a world where fast paced play for the corp is both highly important (since the runner seems to have a great sense of inevitability in the late game), but also high risk (faust, shaper's general ability to get into a remote, blackmail with Valencia, blackmail with Scandal, HQ at an all time high with regards to siphon vulnerability). At the same time, score from hand strategies have been moderately neutered by clot. Some of the new technology spoiled from Mumbad will make this even worse (particularly Political Operative/Councilman) and make the remote even less safe.

If you can lock down the remote, which criminal can do fine with Inside Job, Femme, Siphon Eshutdown etc, where do these agendas go that you'll be drawing? it's hard enough to score out of a remote without Caprice/Ash. I'm not convinced people can keep up the pace of scoring to justify the argument that this free draw is going to be largely better for the corp than the runner. This smacks of the arguments around Leela when she was released.
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Re: Perfect Blue

Postby MasterAir » Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:22 pm

I think you're right, but uninstalling stuff is always going to be bad for the corp. Even if not that bad (which was the mistake people made when underestimating Leela). Whereas drawing cards can be, and often is, good. So bad Fisk decks will be really bad.

I think there is likely a few good Fisk decks in the world. It'll be interesting trying to find them.
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Re: Perfect Blue

Postby Cerberus » Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:43 am

MasterAir wrote:I think you're right, but uninstalling stuff is always going to be bad for the corp. Even if not that bad (which was the mistake people made when underestimating Leela). Whereas drawing cards can be, and often is, good. So bad Fisk decks will be really bad.

I think there is likely a few good Fisk decks in the world. It'll be interesting trying to find them.


One of the key things in my opinion is going to be getting to use the ability every turn. If you are only using it 1 in 3 then I think that it's more just speeding up the Corp, every turn to create the flood. I wonder if we need another card to support his ability before he's competitive? For example every time the Corp draws a card you gain a credit, they lose a credit etc
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Re: Perfect Blue

Postby Stephen » Sun Oct 04, 2015 5:44 pm

Cerberus wrote:
MasterAir wrote:I think you're right, but uninstalling stuff is always going to be bad for the corp. Even if not that bad (which was the mistake people made when underestimating Leela). Whereas drawing cards can be, and often is, good. So bad Fisk decks will be really bad.

I think there is likely a few good Fisk decks in the world. It'll be interesting trying to find them.


One of the key things in my opinion is going to be getting to use the ability every turn. If you are only using it 1 in 3 then I think that it's more just speeding up the Corp, every turn to create the flood. I wonder if we need another card to support his ability before he's competitive? For example every time the Corp draws a card you gain a credit, they lose a credit etc

Something with a Sweeps Week type effect for the runner would be great. Vigil doesn't seem a terrible console but I'm also not sure the influence is worth it, especially when FIS is going to mean you need to play cards to avoid having to discard anyway. Having a rezzed IQ on the board could be annoying.

I also don't think the DLR combo is great out of Fisk. Too long to set-up and I don't think it compliments his ability that well. Certainly once you are set-up and DLRing like a champ, there's little point in running to force a draw when you can just mill one instead (unless you've emptied their R&D of course). In fact, the only piece of the DLR combo that exists in crim is Fall Guy, and that's not 100% necessary. I think true DLR facewrecking lies outside of criminal...

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