Weekly Casual Meetup

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Nekader
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Re: Weekly Casual Meetup

Postby Nekader » Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:50 am

GuyCliquil wrote: i am yet to see a version with a current.


I have seen versions with Cerebral Static and obnoxiously, House Cleaning. I have just slotted Hacktivist and Archives into Noise to see which makes the greatest impact and obviously failed to see an IG in the two days since, haha. Looking to remove Shocks, MoH/ Snare, Bio-ethics, Jackson, Hostile Infrastructure in that order, I think.

Once they're installed, looking to trash Hostile Infrastructure, MoH, Bio-Ethics in that order. If you see Chairman Hiro installed, in my experience you've either just won the game because you ran it the turn it was installed or lost because you didn't.

Anyway, just my 2 cents after a few games against it. I hear it's weak to Siphon and Vamp as well so maybe Leela bouncing everything all over the shop is an answer.
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Re: Weekly Casual Meetup

Postby GuyCliquil » Tue Apr 05, 2016 11:04 am

I will be interested to hear your results. I am reluctant to admit defeat and confess to having a deeply problematic match up - I mean what is the point of a toolbox deck if that is the case?
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Nekader
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Re: Weekly Casual Meetup

Postby Nekader » Sun Apr 10, 2016 7:26 pm

Anyone know if they're going tomorrow yet?
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Brendan
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Re: Weekly Casual Meetup

Postby Brendan » Sun Apr 10, 2016 7:29 pm

I will be along.
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Re: Weekly Casual Meetup

Postby GuyCliquil » Sun Apr 10, 2016 11:17 pm

I will be along

With Hayley :shock:

And HB with some Business First toys.
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Re: Weekly Casual Meetup

Postby GuyCliquil » Tue Apr 12, 2016 11:51 am

Interesting games last night. It was interesting taking PolOP for a spin. It actually isn't as devastating to Caprice as I thought as a 1 x off, even tutored. I think you need 2 to really hammer those defensive upgrades. I think that it will be necessary to be faster than old RP lists used to be (as if Whizzard hammering their ICE wasn't reason enough for this).

Palana seems like a good answer to this. Solid play from Phil tonight I thought and I think there is definitely something still there.

My HB deck was fun but ultimately no good. Its fun to try and rush but Leela goes "cheers" . Poor old Rahul couldn't keep up but I suspect his draw wasn't in his favour (plus those Investigative Journalism's slowed him down a little too much probably). I have a feeling Phil's Noise chomped through it. Too many agendas as well - a lesson in not using GFI.

I think I'll need to find something a little different to get on with.

I still like the idea of going quickly on the corp side, but rush without a threat is problematic and there are so many answers to the old kill threats. its possible that there will be some high variance Jinteki rush about the place when Improved Protein Source drops - I might toy with that. Otherwise I am probably a little out of ideas for now.
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TED-DIE
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Re: Weekly Casual Meetup

Postby TED-DIE » Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:55 pm

Political Dealings and Jeeves Model Bioroids can get a 4/2 or 4/3 from hand...

Or Jeeves with rush...

For rush Subcontract works great with shipment from Kaguya and Shipment from SanSan...

Or Subcontract can be used as a great butchershop tool...
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Brendan
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Re: Weekly Casual Meetup

Postby Brendan » Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:04 pm

Fair warning, guys! None of us are happy about IG being a thing now, since I think it's deeply not very fun and the game drags on forever even if you are maintaining parity in board position. But we need to figure out how to beat it, and someone has to bring it, so I promise I'll bring it Monday.

Whizzard with Archives Interface can probably beat it, as can Andy with Sec Testing/Desperado/John M (and Scrubber?) but I think it's also worth seeing how bad the other matchups are, so you might want to bring stuff not specifically built to fight IG and nothing but IG. ;)

I've also got Palana and NEH which I can bring, in case we end up playing and you really don't want to play this. I understand. I hate it too.
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Re: Weekly Casual Meetup

Postby Nekader » Sun Apr 17, 2016 7:02 pm

With this in my mind, I've adapted a Noise list that is potentially anti-IG and will be bringing some cards to mix that up with. I've also thrown together an Andy deck because damnit, I miss playing Criminal so it'll be interesting to compare how that plays. Not running Scrubber currently because I can't find the influence but this can be a discussion for Monday night. Should be there from around half 5.
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Re: Weekly Casual Meetup

Postby Brendan » Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:06 pm

I have brought along Spags' version (with some tweaks). It's not got Mushin in it.

First practical problems have already been encountered: it doesn't fit properly in my deck box.
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Andy G
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Re: Weekly Casual Meetup

Postby Andy G » Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:27 am

It doesn't fit in a deck box. BAN IT NOW!!!!!

Seriously it's the most unfun netrunner deck ever, at least with 7 point shutdown you can have the fun of watching them fluff up the combo. :D

I know I don't play that much but I'm thinking of waiting for the next NAPD list and hoping things will improve.

Andy
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Re: Weekly Casual Meetup

Postby GuyCliquil » Mon Apr 18, 2016 7:17 am

I will be down. Was going to switch to Nero but if IG is coming I need to see if my Hayley has any hope whatsoever against it.

I'll have a fast HB for contrast. Bring out your Leelas!
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Re: Weekly Casual Meetup

Postby Brendan » Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:02 am

Andy G wrote:Seriously it's the most unfun netrunner deck ever, at least with 7 point shutdown you can have the fun of watching them fluff up the combo. :D


Probably. We're trying to work out how strong it is. Asset spam looks to be the dominant theme of the cycle, so it might be time to just tech hard against it. I've been running two Scrubber in Leela for instance.

I will be down. Was going to switch to Nero but if IG is coming I need to see if my Hayley has any hope whatsoever against it.


I think you have some plays, but it's quite early game dependent. Let's find out!
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Re: Weekly Casual Meetup

Postby GuyCliquil » Mon Apr 18, 2016 11:04 am

If I am playing it wrong I'd be interested to see a reversal - I always love seeing my deck played by other people!

Also - I was at draft London yesterday and won me a Sil deckbox. Is there any chance you don't already have that one? Cause if so I am bringing it for you if you want it.
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Re: Weekly Casual Meetup

Postby Brendan » Mon Apr 18, 2016 11:12 am

That's really sweet of you Guy, but I've got at least one Sil box. And I don't think you play that Hayley deck wrong at all.
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Re: Weekly Casual Meetup

Postby GuyCliquil » Mon Apr 18, 2016 11:23 am

Thought it was probably in your Netrunner horde! (pictured)

Image

:D
Also ... there is a chance that a new Netrunner player I have just introduced will be down to watch some games/hang out. She has only played 1 game so far (an intro deck Kate vs into Weyland) but very much enjoyed! She is an ex Magic player but says Netrunner makes a lot more sense to her. She was describing some of her magic plays to me the other day and she used words to the effect of "It was less effective but I loved it because it was willy and fun" .

I cannot imagine what that is like.
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Re: Weekly Casual Meetup

Postby Brendan » Mon Apr 18, 2016 11:45 am

You should hear what Joey uses his horde of winnings for. I will tell you tonight. Bring tissues.
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Re: Weekly Casual Meetup

Postby GuyCliquil » Tue Apr 19, 2016 9:27 am

OK. So. We didn't have much fun playing against IG did we Phil?

Kudos to Brendan for playing it well of course, and we are glad to have had the experience.

But eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh I am just stuck.

I didn't really have a plan in my Hayley game except get set up to enable me to hit Archives with Archives Interface. Unfortunately i never drew it, and with no agendas being scored/stolen I was unable to tutor for a single thing. If I HAD drawn it then the game would have turned into a slog fest which I MIGHT have been able to win, but I still think it would have been an uphill struggle for my economic options to try and keep up. Especially as IG is able to put considerable resources into protecting centrals. This made my plan to hopefully pinch one or two from Indexing even more problematic - having to trash Jacksons notwithstanding.

In short i don't know how I can adapt my Hayley deck to cope. Phil seemed pretty depressed about Noise & the Andy matchup looked terrible (and presumably this would be one of the strongest for Criminal).

I'm left thinking in 3 directions:

1 - We find a way to NOT play IG's game

That's what I was hoping I could do with Hayley - let them build their boardstate but then surgically take it down later once I had set up. Alternatively if R&D was underdefended then pinching off R&D could become a possibility again. As discussed, this failed.

I still feel that the best way to beat a lot of corps is to find a way to not play the game they want to play - or to make them play in the way you want to. If NEH tries to go fast you stop them Fast Advancing out, if HB wants to play never advance in a horrible remote then playing the Source... OK nabbing the agendas off R&D is often the response but seriously THE SOURCE (sorry, janky asides). Hitting R&D or credit denial ruined many a shell game deck's day. So... what's the "OK we'll do our thing" against IG? I've not worked it out

2- We trash and trash and trash

You load up on Imps, Scrubbers, Paricia's and just get trashing. Hit at least 1 thing a turn and just try and fight your way back to them not having the huge amount of utility of all those servers

3 - Hit 'em hard & early

Go so fast in the early game that the mid/late game boardstate never develops.

4 - Apocalypse?

Variation of above, with a plan to deal with Hostile Infrastructure.

5 - Hope the rules change

Ugh

....

All of the above looks like it might be necessary to be Whizzard to do, which is annoying because Whizzard was already a great idea as a runner. And, to me, it seems that it just comes down to that sheer raw power of that machine of Draw, Ice destruction, Medium, and all that jazz. I actually have no major problem with that deck as such, I just don't want to have to play it to compete at a tournament. Sure, I CAN take another deck but I feel like I will just have to accept that I lose to IG. That bothers me. I don't mind having more difficult match ups, in fact in playing a toolbox deck I kind of end up with all match ups having dead draws to play around, but I am struggling to think I can play a deck even remotely like mine and competing with IG. That feels a little galling. I guess, however, this is how Andysucker (and other Criminals) players felt against RP so maybe this is just something I have to accept?



In other news I had an OK day with my latest HB rush experiment. I can't speak for Phil & Brendan absolutely but they certainly seemed to have a lot more fun against it - win OR lose. That said, I think it mainly won because Aggressive Secretary is harsh vs. Criminals, I think I might keep exploring with the new 5/3 Voting Tampering HB agenda. I don't think it is in the same league as Global Food, but I DO like it.
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Re: Weekly Casual Meetup

Postby Brendan » Tue Apr 19, 2016 9:55 am

I think you've got two options and you really need to focus:

1) Control the board.
2) Apply so much early pressure you win before they have a chance to assemble the lock (which can take quite a while).

I think Criminals have no chance to apply the early pressure to win - there's no Keyhole, Medium, etc, and HQI is dependent on the corp drawing agendas (and not burying them with Jackson/Heritage Committee/Museum). But they do have Account Siphon, Bank Job, etc. So the Criminal gameplan must be to apply the pressure to control the game. I do think Andy should have a good matchup, but the stealth suite might not be the best one for the job. It seems very slow against NEH for instance.

Shapers do have the option to go heavy on the R&D pressure - an early Keyhole or Medium can be a nightmare for IG. They're less suited to controlling the board.

Anarch can go either way.
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Re: Weekly Casual Meetup

Postby GuyCliquil » Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:46 am

So what does the early R&D pressure look like? Spamming out Maker's Eyes? R&D interfaces? Indexing was my hope yesterday and a single Jackson on the board just makes me sad. Splash for a Keyhole? Its possible but an Ashigaru over R&D just ruins my day.
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Re: Weekly Casual Meetup

Postby Brendan » Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:11 pm

Whizzard with Medium looks pretty good. Remember Museum shuffles, so you're getting fresh accesses each time. RDI could be good too.

IG doesn't run much ice, and the ice it does run is either Crick or very expesnive (Hive, Komainu, Ashigaru) and very taxing - basically to complete the lock out.

Thoughts so far:

1) Whizzard - probably a good matchup, dependent on early R&D pressure and control of Archives. Could get hairy with Shock! and some really good corp draws that locks Archives/sets up fast.
2) Noise - probably a bad matchup. No work needed to dump stuff into Archives, which you want to defend anyway. Limited ability to control the board via Imp, but that limitation is a problem. Museum removes the win condition. I think defending a Museum goes a long way in this matchup.
3) Crim - it's either teched hard to control the board (many Scrubbers, Sec Testing, Bank Job, Desperado, John M) or it isn't. If it isn't, it loses, because the IG lategame is impervious to Criminal pressure. If it is trying to control the board, it might work, but we need to test more.
4) Shaper - early pressure with Maker's spam, Indexing, etc. should help, but it's pretty hard to control the board. I'm not sure how to handle this matchup, but Shaper rarely takes the direct approach anyway. Maybe there's something we're missing or yet to be printed.
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Re: Weekly Casual Meetup

Postby Cerberus » Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:36 pm

Film Critic feels like a must have as well as R&D pressure. I was saying to Brendan that Eater does good work out of faction if you have other cards that pair with it such as Siphon. With Siphon, Eater, Bank Job / Sec testing you have a lot of answers.
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Re: Weekly Casual Meetup

Postby Brendan » Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:50 pm

Film Critic is a really good call. Works on 5 of the 8 agendas in IG.
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Re: Weekly Casual Meetup

Postby Cerberus » Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:10 pm

If I really wanted to play Criminal against IG, I'd do something like the below:

I think it would have an okay NEH match up, but I would probably chance up the influence so that it had 1 or 2 R&DI. I know it would have bad HB/Palana glacier match ups, but I honestly dont think you can have everything in Criminal currently, you need to make a good meta call.

Industrial Andromeda

Andromeda: Dispossessed Ristie

Event (18)
3x Account Siphon
3x Dirty Laundry
1x Emergency Shutdown
1x Employee Strike •
2x Inside Job
2x Legwork
3x Special Order
3x Sure Gamble

Hardware (3)
3x Desperado ☆☆☆

Resource (16)
3x Bank Job
1x Film Critic •
2x John Masanori
2x Kati Jones
2x Political Operative
3x Same Old Thing
3x Security Testing

Icebreaker (7)
2x Corroder ••••
1x Eater •••
1x Femme Fatale
1x Gordian Blade •••
1x Mongoose
1x Passport

Program (2)
2x Sneakdoor Beta

12 influence spent (max 15-3☆=12)
46 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Democracy and Dogma

Deck built on http://netrunnerdb.com.
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Nekader
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Re: Weekly Casual Meetup

Postby Nekader » Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:53 pm

Cerberus wrote: Eater, Bank Job / Sec testing you have a lot of answers.


Why Eater? Just because you have the money and it guarantees Siphons? I guess it makes sense. Also not tossing away cards is probably beneficial. I was running a Stealth Andy against it and it felt like a bad match up.

I agree with the Noise conclusion. It may just be my piloting, but I've always run him almost like a Leela: precision runs that guarantee success rather than hyper-aggressive whatever. Desperado definitely lends itself to that for Crim.

For individual cards: Hacktivist is irrelevant. They don't value their cards if they're not installed. All just artifacts in the Museum.
Employee Strike I haven't had a chance to use yet but has proved helpful against other iDs (Spark, NEH, Palana).
Archives Interface: You're already looking for WyldCakes (6 credits) and Aesop's. This feels too slow: you still need to prioritise the aforementioned and it's 3 cost! Out of Noise, it's just too bulky and out of Whizzard... He already has enough pressure.
Imp: Not fast enough out of Noise. Perhaps in other Scrubber anarchs or Whizzard it might be able to really force the issue.
Scrubber: I haven't tested but I'm not convinced. One is too few, two or more may not appear early enough.

(IG is my Ganondorf).

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