Faust Apex

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king_mob
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Faust Apex

Postby king_mob » Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:38 am

Thought id cross post my list here as well as stimhack.com

I am pretty unconvinced that Apex with the current card pool will be top tier, but its fun as all hell.

Here are my notes from the stimhack thread which explains some of the card choices and makes some observations on Apex in general.

  • Draw is seriously not a problem with chopbot and QT. With 1-2 wastelands out you can net a card and 2c a turn, which is great. It doesn't take forever to set up either (comparable to desperado/sec testing iv found). Cycling out face down cards into your heap also makes levy better. QT feeds faust nicely, its rare iv found myself bouncing if i take the time to think it through and call the face down ice correctly.
  • Deja Vu is there as your 2nd levy.
  • Ghostrunner looks dumb, and is dumb. But with 1-2 wastelands when you use all the credits you can turn ghostrunner into an easy mark or a sure gamble, which is neat. The uses for GR are limited though as your breakers don't need money, so tollbooth (allowing you to use hunting grounds on something like data raven or komainu instead, although you should aim for 2 hunting grounds for maximum lulz), pop up window, traces etc. Other than that, its a facedown card.
  • Faust is the only breaker we can really use that will handle the problem ice that endless hunger cannot, albeit when you start breaking things like assassin and susan it gets pretty taxing. @Zeromus's explanation on his list way back is pretty much bang on - remote lock primarily, and poke the centrals if you think you can get an easy access. Also, faust > e3, and breaks the reliance on that two card combo as your breaker suite.
  • Apocalypse is something of a trap card i worry. You definitely dont want to play it every game, i think more than anything its for taking down asset spam NEH. Against HB apocalypse would one of the first things id put facedown, if you find yourself at the right point to play apocalypse you will invariably also find yourself in the position of needing to click through a bioroid.
  • Makers eye is the best post apocalypse option i feel, and has a lot of utility elsewhere too.
  • Prey is mostly useful for taking out low cost binary ice, to preserve facedown cards (they are still a resource and need managing like credits).
  • With a singleton plassy (can be a facedown card happily in every other matchup) and heartbeat you are EXTREMELY hard to kill. Rage quits aplenty from haarp scorch players, which is delicious.

Speaking of facedown cards, Apex more than any other runner has been forcing me to think about the next 2-3 turns, and what i want to do. Before with other ID's i played almost purely reactively, but with the list below i think nearly every card has value, so you need to really, really think about when you want to play a certain card, and whether or not it will have value as a facedown right now. Do i want to QT turn 1? Do i need endless hunger right now? If i apocalypse the corp into the ground, what do i want facedown and what do i want in my heap?

I don't know if i am a good enough player to really pull an Apex build up, but i think at least this build answers a lot of the problems the ID faces.

Faustian Apex

Apex: Invasive Predator (Data and Destiny)

Event (22)
3x Apocalypse (Data and Destiny)
3x Dirty Laundry (Creation and Control)
1x Déjà Vu (Core Set) ••
1x Levy AR Lab Access (Creation and Control) •••
3x Lucky Find (Double Time) ••••• •
3x Prey (Data and Destiny)
3x Quality Time (Humanity's Shadow) •••
3x Sure Gamble (Core Set)
2x The Maker's Eye (Core Set) ••••

Hardware (7)
3x Chop Bot 3000 (Order and Chaos) •••
3x Heartbeat (Data and Destiny)
1x Plascrete Carapace (What Lies Ahead)

Resource (8)
2x Ghost Runner (The Spaces Between)
3x Hunting Grounds (Data and Destiny)
3x Wasteland (Data and Destiny)

Icebreaker (5)
3x Endless Hunger (Data and Destiny)
2x Faust (The Underway) ••••

Program (3)
3x Harbinger (Data and Destiny)
25 influence spent (max 25)
45 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Data and Destiny

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MouseChan
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Re: Faust Apex

Postby MouseChan » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:15 pm

No E3?

Also chop bot is a bit of a trap as it freezes your board state, Endless [s]hunter[/s] hunger wants to use the cards to break stuff, and heartbeat likes a big stack of them so you can survive for roughly 109 years.
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Re: Faust Apex

Postby GuyCliquil » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:23 pm

Would it not depend on how much you were using the Endless Hunger ability? I mean, if you're using it rarely you can use the cards that you hard install with it as well then maybe this is fine? It seems like, to some extent, this is a Faust build with Endless Hunger dealing with the ETR Ice when Faust just isn't going to cut it.

Turing is horrible though.
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Re: Faust Apex

Postby MouseChan » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:34 pm

GuyCliquil wrote:Would it not depend on how much you were using the Endless Hunger ability? I mean, if you're using it rarely you can use the cards that you hard install with it as well then maybe this is fine? It seems like, to some extent, this is a Faust build with Endless Hunger dealing with the ETR Ice when Faust just isn't going to cut it.

Turing is horrible though.


Turing you prey through, but with EH, Prey and heartbeat all pulling for your facedown board state, you need it to grow. Chop changes your 0th click into "discard a card to draw a card", which isn't great, not when quality time and diesel are great draw quite cheap on inf.

'Tect is worse than turning imo, thing doesn't die, and it rebuilds after apoc, and EH can't touch it.
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king_mob
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Re: Faust Apex

Postby king_mob » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:42 pm

Turing does make me a sad panda sometimes, but until i see Turing in RP over a scoring remote its not the end of the world.

Faust > e3 against so many pieces of ice. Also, e3 on its own without endless hunger is useless, and faust is not.

Also, chopbot doesnt need using every turn. Its as guy said, very dependent on what you want to be using the facedown cards for each turn. If i want to cycle things into the bin pre-levy, or just get extra cards, then chopbot is what i use. If i want to trash facedown cards for a run then ill not use chopbot. Some turns i want to discard a card to draw a card and get 2c. If that was a resource it would be immense and id stick it in loads of decks. Chopbot also helps deal with tags, which is more of an issue than you think - not for scorch, but for pyscho and closed accounts.

The overlap is less than you think in terms of getting facedown cards on the board. Wasteland helps for burst, but a faust and QT click 1 lessens what you need facedown cards for anyway.

I dont think your wrong, if playing this deck someone goes too aggro (something i do too often) then yes you can burn through too much too quickly and get locked out. But then worse comes to worse you trash chopbot to feed endless hunger XD

Its really about pacing and apex is annoying in that. Before, we could just count credits and gauge pace from that, now we have to monitor credits, facedown cards and cards in grip. Its like im playing C&C Red alert. But with netrunner cards.
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Re: Faust Apex

Postby Lemonbrick » Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:00 am

So , Friday night I built an Apex deck for sats GNK, I lost 4 times , but all the games were good and 3 were winnable (lack of experience)

based my lessons this is the updated result, comments welcome

things I learnt , cadesus, architect, etc.... really need a solid answer mimic is by far the best pick.

Turning is the death of apex. really.
Assassin is a pain but solvable.

Heartbeat is ace


Apex: Invasive Predator (Data and Destiny)

Event (21)
1x Déjà Vu (Core Set) ••
2x The Maker's Eye (Core Set) ••••
3x Sure Gamble (Core Set)
3x Quality Time (Humanity's Shadow) •••
3x Dirty Laundry (Creation and Control)
3x Lucky Find (Double Time) ••••• •
1x Legwork (Honor and Profit) ••
3x Apocalypse (Data and Destiny)
2x Prey (Data and Destiny)

Hardware (9)
1x Plascrete Carapace (What Lies Ahead)
2x e3 Feedback Implants (Trace Amount) ••••
3x Prepaid VoicePAD (Second Thoughts)
3x Heartbeat (Data and Destiny)

Resource (6)
3x Hunting Grounds (Data and Destiny)
3x Wasteland (Data and Destiny)

Icebreaker (6)
2x Mimic (Core Set) ••
1x Peacock (What Lies Ahead) ••
3x Endless Hunger (Data and Destiny)

Program (3)
3x Harbinger (Data and Destiny)

25 influence spent (maximum 25)
45 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Data and Destiny
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Re: Faust Apex

Postby king_mob » Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:53 am

I lost faust in the end, the over lap with everything else Apex does was too great, too much ended up in the bin and it still wasnt a decent answer to turing.

Im finding DDoS is pretty nice in Apex though, people will think they are clever sticking an assassin over a cheap ETR ice and try and keep you out of the scoring remote, just slap em with DDoS from hand.

Current answer to turing is stimhack > crypsis from archives with a clone chip. 3 card wombo combo, so blatantly tier 1.

DDoS Apex

Apex: Invasive Predator (Data and Destiny)

Event (18)
3x Apocalypse (Data and Destiny)
3x Dirty Laundry (Creation and Control)
3x Prey (Data and Destiny)
3x Quality Time (Humanity's Shadow) •••
3x Stimhack (Core Set) •••
3x Sure Gamble (Core Set)

Hardware (8)
3x Clone Chip (Creation and Control) ••••• •
3x Heartbeat (Data and Destiny)
2x Plascrete Carapace (What Lies Ahead)

Resource (7)
3x DDoS (The Universe of Tomorrow) ••••• ••••
3x Hunting Grounds (Data and Destiny)
1x Utopia Shard (All That Remains)

Icebreaker (6)
3x Crypsis (Core Set)
3x Endless Hunger (Data and Destiny)

Program (6)
3x Crescentus (A Study in Static) •••
3x Harbinger (Data and Destiny)
25 influence spent (max 25)
45 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Data and Destiny

Deck built on NetrunnerDB.
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MasterAir
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Re: Faust Apex

Postby MasterAir » Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:15 pm

Crypsis is also an AI. Sorry man. The only answers are an actual decoder (Force of Nature is only 1 inf (don't play that card)) prey and APOCALYPSE.
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king_mob
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Re: Faust Apex

Postby king_mob » Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:16 pm

MasterAir wrote:Crypsis is also an AI. Sorry man. The only answers are an actual decoder (Force of Nature is only 1 inf (don't play that card)) prey and APOCALYPSE.


Oh god your right :( :( :(
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Re: Faust Apex

Postby Johno » Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:24 pm

Also Hyperdriver :P
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Lemonbrick
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Re: Faust Apex

Postby Lemonbrick » Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:22 am

king_mob wrote:
MasterAir wrote:Crypsis is also an AI. Sorry man. The only answers are an actual decoder (Force of Nature is only 1 inf (don't play that card)) prey and APOCALYPSE.


Oh god your right :( :( :(


I made this mistake on saturday game 2 , it meant game 4 had to be conceded as ELP meant I could not even click through it, as it was on HQ it prevented the apocalypse :(

my answer is actually peacock. bare with me. honest. hunger breaks the bulk of codegates as they have 'end the run' however a select few like wormhole, turning and a few others have to be broken but yog without datasucker can't always , and looking at it I found that peacock might be best way. Zu Key also works but is more expensive to break.

Hyperdriver also works but its so much inf!
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Re: Faust Apex

Postby Johno » Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:03 am

The other benefit of Hyperdriver (and I'm aware we're entering very muddy jank-waters here) is that it can help you do everything on your Apocalypse turn.

But I agree, it's not exactly auto-include given the influence cost.
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Re: Faust Apex

Postby Lemonbrick » Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:15 am

Johno wrote:The other benefit of Hyperdriver (and I'm aware we're entering very muddy jank-waters here) is that it can help you do everything on your Apocalypse turn.

But I agree, it's not exactly auto-include given the influence cost.


out of interest where do you get the mem from ? as 4 + 3 mem normally the only considered in my professor decks....
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Re: Faust Apex

Postby king_mob » Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:40 am

Latest attempt, taking the NRDB deck of the week idea of using DDoS/Apocolypse/Siphon to create merry hell. Brain cage is in there only because you can prevent the brain damage, which i think is hilarious.

Between Endless Hunger and DDoS, i think siphons will be pretty easy to land (they have in testing so far), and you can take the money from the siphon and the rez prevention from DDoS and go wreck all their assets. Also, DDoS and Endless Hunger do wonders on a double ICE'd remote.

Lastly, Siphon money stays around pretty much the whole game with this deck, you dont really spend much of it, so Crypsis actually has some late game value.

DDoS Apex

Apex: Invasive Predator (Data and Destiny)

Event (23)
3x Account Siphon (Core Set) ••••• ••••• ••
3x Apocalypse (Data and Destiny)
3x Dirty Laundry (Creation and Control)
1x Déjà Vu (Core Set) ••
3x Infiltration (Core Set)
3x Prey (Data and Destiny)
1x Quality Time (Humanity's Shadow)
3x Sure Gamble (Core Set)
3x Uninstall (Order and Chaos)

Hardware (6)
3x Brain Cage (Chrome City)
3x Heartbeat (Data and Destiny)

Resource (7)
3x DDoS (The Universe of Tomorrow) ••••• ••••
3x Hunting Grounds (Data and Destiny)
1x Utopia Shard (All That Remains)

Icebreaker (6)
3x Crypsis (Core Set)
3x Endless Hunger (Data and Destiny)

Program (3)
3x Harbinger (Data and Destiny)
25 influence spent (max 25)
45 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Data and Destiny

Deck built on NetrunnerDB.
Memstrips deserves a chance. Memstrips.
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Re: Faust Apex

Postby Johno » Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:28 am

Lemonbrick wrote:
Johno wrote:The other benefit of Hyperdriver (and I'm aware we're entering very muddy jank-waters here) is that it can help you do everything on your Apocalypse turn.

But I agree, it's not exactly auto-include given the influence cost.


out of interest where do you get the mem from ? as 4 + 3 mem normally the only considered in my professor decks....

It's a good point. This was for a build that doesn't lean on Endless Hunger as its main breaker. It's around, so if you need it for your Apocalypse turn, you can pop Hyper, install EH with one of your spare clicks and run riot.

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