Podcast - Run Last Click

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MouseChan
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Re: Podcast - Run Last Click

Postby MouseChan » Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:23 am

RunLastClick wrote:New episode is up!
http://runlastclick.blogspot.co.uk/2015 ... igans.html
In this episode We take a visit to Chrome City.

@ApeAsylum Thank you very much. Krystian was a great guest! Would love to have him on again sometime.


Haha, Eady's reaction at my name is fantastic.

Also I just started using turntable!!

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Brendan
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Re: Podcast - Run Last Click

Postby Brendan » Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:38 am

This was a hilarious episode and really interesting to listen to.
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evilgaz
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Re: Podcast - Run Last Click

Postby evilgaz » Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:57 am

Good episode as always (although I think I'm in a minority of one in not liking Hackman - I did like Quinns' gravely voice however)!

Re judging etc. I think we simply need some ground rules - what to do in certain situations. The trouble is at the minute this varies wildly from place to place and some common cases could do with clearing up with what the fix is. Stuff I've seen that gives people bad feels:

Slow play - all the time - in particular you summon up the cajones to call someone on it and they don't really improve. You have to go through the whole "I don't want to call a judge" thing... and then at Nationals for instance I know of a game where a TO was called over but then did/said nothing.

Do I want to make everyone feel pressured to rush all the time? Not really? Do I want people not getting a result at high level tournaments because people are slow? Not really either.

I think the different levels of expectation at different levels of event is a good idea - Uroborus Cup at Expo had a different feel than Nationals for example. Both were good though.

I've also had people accidentally see an extra top card and then immediately shuffle their deck because they're seen it and they shouldn't. But what if it was an Agenda, or something they didn't want? Normal practice is to ask your opponent what they want you to do - but some people don't paused, they just crack on with how their local meta deals with these things. Some guidance on the correct approach would even things out among people who don't normally play together.

Similarly I've had people take plays back - normally I'd probably be okay with this if nothing has changed, but it's nice to be asked as technically they're not allowed to. Perhaps some etiquette or informal guidelines might help here? One person used "raised voice" with me about taking something back because I hadn't reacted yet (thinking...) - I don't see why I should feel uncomfortable or pressured because someone else made a mistake - but it happens.

At high level tournaments there's got to be an element of if you make mistakes you live with them. To be honest, that's my mantra anyway. Not in all cases, but mostly if I mess things up even in casual play, I often just live with it as that's a better way of learning than being let off and trying to remember not to do it again.

There is still place for more casual / friendly rulings in more local or less official tournaments.

It would be good to have a list of stuff to refer to though, even if they're guidelines rather than rules. You can't cover all cases, but some would be good just for consistency - even in law judges have a range of sentences to hand out for various crimes - we could just as easily have a caution up to DQ for various things...

However, when you've got coverage of Worlds and to level FFG guys are making some really poor calls, the question of who comes up with rules and how they're enforced is another matter entirely!

One step forward might to be have a TO / Judge community and discuss rulings or have communal agreement on things discussed there? It would require people putting some effort into taking part, reporting there issues at tournaments and solutions they used, getting feedback from people who were in similar situations, reviewing ramifications and how things landed (how the players reacted to the rulings) etc., but would probably be a more healthy than the law being handed down in tablets of stone from up high.

You also get other things, like a fairly famous fellow on the continent who repeatedly "dropped" his opponents' decks while shuffling and had a game loss - but only after doing this for the fourth time (fourth reported time anyway) - which probably goes beyond benefit of the doubt. How do you determine if someone is clumsy or doing it on purpose? Arguably if you can't shuffle a deck without dropping it you're in the wrong game, but we all act like a clutz from time to time.

I haven't got the answers, but it does feel like we need a bit more consistency and guidance then we currently have for top level events, without going full-on draconian law. Some flexibility in suggested sanctions allows for players to be sensible with each other, rather than having to stick to a silly rule neither of them feels good about sticking to.

Word.
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Brendan
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Re: Podcast - Run Last Click

Postby Brendan » Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:11 pm

With regards to a more strict rules enforcement thing:

There are enough important card effects (Jackson, Blacklist, Clot, Shards) and enough instant effects (rez, Clone Chip/SMC, Peddler) that playing strictly by the rules is going to require a framework of '[action], any reaction?' after every click and paid ability. It will drive us all insane unless these rules are tidied up first.
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Re: Podcast - Run Last Click

Postby Sixtyten » Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:55 pm

Brendan wrote:With regards to a more strict rules enforcement thing:

There are enough important card effects (Jackson, Blacklist, Clot, Shards) and enough instant effects (rez, Clone Chip/SMC, Peddler) that playing strictly by the rules is going to require a framework of '[action], any reaction?' after every click and paid ability. It will drive us all insane unless these rules are tidied up first.


Regarding this, particularly clot, I feel obliged to be polite to my opponent and try and avoid sloppy plays. I always ask if the runner wishes to access the card which allows for a final "tidy up" before they eat the snare!
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Xenasis
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Re: Podcast - Run Last Click

Postby Xenasis » Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:48 pm

There are a few things I'd like to add to the discussion about judging:

  • I think the point really that minimising the "feel bad" is the best way to approach Netrunner judging. Finding the right balance of not giving people DQs/Game Losses because they made a mistake but also keeping the game fair sometimes isn't easy, but having a standardised set of reactions to such scenarios means judges won't need to make rash or high pressure decisions.

  • The best way to minimise "feel bad" is to give out less losses/DQs and instead try to 'fix' the gamestate. As a quick example, I know that Magic recently changed their punishment for drawing extra cards from being a game loss to having their opponent look at their hand, choose a card from it, and shuffle that card back into their deck. This way it's fair, means it's not beneficial to try and cheat, and also avoids giving out game losses too freely. It's a very nice change and similar rulings would be welcome in Netrunner in my opinion. I don't think a competitive event needs to be one that throws around DQs/game losses, and I don't think a judge program would or should necessarily make a tournament more intimidating. I'd say it's more intimidating when you have no idea what the judge is like because there's no standardisation.

  • I think a proper judge program would minimise "feel bad", as you'd never get the feeling that a particular judge was being too harsh or too lenient on your opponent because they'd do exactly the same to anybody else. It would mean that no ruling would be a 'surprise' on the day. Everyone would know what would happen, and that sort of clarity of information I think is important.

  • As for the whole casual vs competitive type deal, I agree that there should be relaxed events and competitive events. I don't think we have to choose one and not have the other. I like the idea of the distinction between Bronze, Silver, Gold. As an example, Regionals and Nationals are not the sort of events that newer players (that might be afraid of judges for some reason) with little interest in the competitive scene are going to want to go to and I don't think that adding judges will be particularly prohibitive. GNKs for example, absolutely shouldn't be judged and should be super relaxed. Even at high level competitive events like Nationals, we shouldn't start throwing around game losses like they're candy, though. Judges aren't there to DQ random people, they're there to fix the game state if it goes awry and prevent cheating.

  • Cheating is, in my opinion, completely unacceptable and inexcusable at any level of event. Overt cheating (distinct from things that could have been a play mistake) should not be accepted at a high level tournament, and DQs should not be withheld from people who are cheating. However, there's a difference between cheating and making a mistake, as we all know, but if you can prove someone's cheating, don't hold anything back, in my opinion. I absolutely abhor the notion that people could possibly be allowed to cheat at Netrunner, and having a proper judge program and/or floor rules in place is really the only way to prevent it.
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pruneface
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Re: Podcast - Run Last Click

Postby pruneface » Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:07 pm

Xenasis wrote:*very sensible things*


On your final point about cheating, I especially agree. Letting a culture of deliberate cheating flourish under the guise of 'being nice' (i.e. not checking / cutting shuffles, not calling people up, complacent judges) really wrecked CoC and I would hate that to happen to netrunner. Thankfully I don't think that's much of a problem right now, but I would hate it to become one.
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RunLastClick
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Re: Podcast - Run Last Click

Postby RunLastClick » Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:39 pm

Good to see you all getting involved in the conversation :).

New episode is up with a few emails from Magic players about tournaments.
http://runlastclick.blogspot.co.uk/2015 ... erway.html
Enjoy.
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Re: Podcast - Run Last Click

Postby Sincil Banks » Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:50 am

Cheating is, in my opinion, completely unacceptable and inexcusable at any level of event. Overt cheating (distinct from things that could have been a play mistake) should not be accepted at a high level tournament, and DQs should not be withheld from people who are cheating. However, there's a difference between cheating and making a mistake, as we all know, but if you can prove someone's cheating, don't hold anything back, in my opinion. I absolutely abhor the notion that people could possibly be allowed to cheat at Netrunner, and having a proper judge program and/or floor rules in place is really the only way to prevent it.


Firstly I'll completely second the above opinion...
And then I'll weigh in here with my opinion on the etiquette of competitive play..I have several times (especially in my early days) committed a mistake which significantly altered the board state, and I have conceded the game. This (imho) is the gentlemanly thing to do, avoids all the hassle of requiring a judge and putting pressure on them to come up with a decision on the spot. I'm not talking about minor mistakes but something which can't be undone easily and has already impacted the opponents decision making process for several clicks. I think adopting this approach would create a culture that would make dealing with overt cheaters a lot easier from the players perspective of those who encounter it...
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Re: Podcast - Run Last Click

Postby RunLastClick » Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:32 pm

New episode is up!
http://runlastclick.blogspot.co.uk/2015 ... -lane.html
We look back at some older cards to see if they have improved with age.
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Re: Podcast - Run Last Click

Postby mendax » Mon Aug 10, 2015 8:10 pm

You appear to have confused Cerebral Imaging with Chronos Protocol.
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Re: Podcast - Run Last Click

Postby evilgaz » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:28 pm

Viper! The secret is out! It's arguably my favourite HB ICE. Sexy times.
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RunLastClick
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Re: Podcast - Run Last Click

Postby RunLastClick » Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:15 pm

New episode is up!
http://runlastclick.blogspot.co.uk/2015 ... limey.html
We talk about what to do after you buy the Core set.

@evilgaz The sexest
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Re: Podcast - Run Last Click

Postby RunLastClick » Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:08 pm

New episode is up!
http://runlastclick.blogspot.co.uk/2015 ... ywood.html
We talk about the cards of Old Hollywood.
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Re: Podcast - Run Last Click

Postby RunLastClick » Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:35 pm

New episode is up!
http://runlastclick.blogspot.co.uk/2015 ... ntity.html
We answer questions from listerners about identities.
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Re: Podcast - Run Last Click

Postby RunLastClick » Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:35 pm

New episode is up!
http://runlastclick.blogspot.co.uk/2015 ... orrow.html
In this one we talk The Universe of Tomorrow! Also, patreon! www.patreon.com/runlastclick
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Re: Podcast - Run Last Click

Postby Sixtyten » Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:57 pm

RunLastClick wrote:New episode is up!
http://runlastclick.blogspot.co.uk/2015 ... orrow.html
In this one we talk The Universe of Tomorrow! Also, patreon! http://www.patreon.com/runlastclick


Dammit! More nice people to give money to..
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Re: Podcast - Run Last Click

Postby RunLastClick » Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:19 pm

New episode is up!
http://runlastclick.blogspot.co.uk/2015 ... onins.html
We talk to Graham Linehan about Netrunner.
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RunLastClick
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Re: Podcast - Run Last Click

Postby RunLastClick » Mon Nov 09, 2015 9:33 pm

New episode is up!
http://runlastclick.blogspot.co.uk/2015 ... oblem.html
In which we talk about deck building with each of the new Data and Destiny runners.
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RunLastClick
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Re: Podcast - Run Last Click

Postby RunLastClick » Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:20 pm

New episode is up!
http://runlastclick.blogspot.co.uk/2015 ... orlds.html
This week we have a natter about worlds with a member of Team GB.
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evilgaz
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Re: Podcast - Run Last Click

Postby evilgaz » Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:30 pm

Ah fun times! Great to relive some memories and also get a shout out! Good work from HGV, although in the time allowed he could only recount a fraction of the stories from the event.

Look forward to taking a bigger team next year!
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RunLastClick
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Re: Podcast - Run Last Click

Postby RunLastClick » Mon Dec 07, 2015 6:54 pm

New episode is up!
http://runlastclick.blogspot.co.uk/2015 ... stiny.html
Where we talk to Timmy Wong about Worlds and D&D.
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evilgaz
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Re: Podcast - Run Last Click

Postby evilgaz » Thu Dec 10, 2015 12:08 pm

With or at? ;)

Fun episode as always guys. Turns out one of my mates knows Eady as well, but didn't know he was a geek. Small world.
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RunLastClick
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Re: Podcast - Run Last Click

Postby RunLastClick » Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:59 pm

New episode is up!
http://runlastclick.blogspot.co.uk/2015 ... galoo.html
This week we do a bad am-dram Christmas story and finally do The Book Club on Glasshouse.
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Re: Podcast - Run Last Click

Postby RunLastClick » Mon Jan 04, 2016 7:45 pm

New episode is up!
http://runlastclick.blogspot.co.uk/2016 ... ntlet.html
We talk about our experience at a Netrunner gauntlet and maybe there is something else too...

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